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Matthew Mollica

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How much land do I need?
« on: August 02, 2003, 06:45:59 AM »
Gentlemen and Ladies,

I'm looking to buy a plot of land, on which to build a course. Given the need for turf nursery, 'buffer-zones' from the neighbours / boundaries, a driving range to fit 24 golfers, short game practice areas, a spot for the clubhouse, associated landscaping and parking, and so on,

HOW MUCH LAND DO I NEED ?

N.B. This course will never host championships, and as such, doesn't need space for large galeries, media vans, etc.

What is the minimum size parcel you would be comfortable working on? Merion and Kingston Heath and Woodlands (Aust.) are all built on small blocks, but some modern courses are massive, and appear to use way too much land.

I'm grateful for your answers and thoughts....

Matthew
« Last Edit: August 02, 2003, 07:06:48 AM by MatthewM »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Chris Kane

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2003, 07:03:16 AM »
Matt,
If you can afford to build a golf course on a podiatrist's income, what do I need to do to become a podiatrist?   ;)
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Matthew Mollica

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2003, 07:13:18 AM »
Chris - all you need to do is buy a lotto ticket! That's all I did ;D
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

RJ_Daley

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2003, 08:49:48 AM »
any suggestions for tonights numbers? ;D

Really Matthew, the question is so terrain and parcel shaped specific along with style of course dependent that it is very hard to determine the amount of land. You sort of need to route it first by going from topo map to in field examination, back and forth until you have a rudimentary and generous route worked out, then see what acreage you used.  The newer courses that go for shaped mounds to separate fairway corridors, without trees seem to actually take up more space than the old parkland courses where trees and mowed rough divide fairways. And, there is the modern consideratons of risk liability for seperation to avoid errant balls from other fairways konking folks on the head.  The flat land with blank slate approach may need to eat up more land if several lakes are dug to acquire shaping materials if large earthworks features like the Raynor-Banks, MacDonald model is followed (or you need a source of said shaping materials).  As you note, there are courses that sit on about 120-130 acres and route back and forth side by side efficiently, yet many just as similar in yardage but turn to and fro that eat up 220+.  Perhaps if there is another golf course near the property you contemplate, that has similar land forms and similar style, you might guage your estimates off of that specific one of similar character.
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Brock Peyer

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2003, 09:08:47 AM »
It is good to be the podiatrist!!!!  
I don't buy lotto tickets but I think that is probaby the 3rd thing that I would try to do with lottos winnings.  Good luck, keep us posted.
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RJ_Daley

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2003, 09:21:23 AM »
come on now Brock, you are going to tell us the first two things, aren't you? ;D
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Joe Hancock

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2003, 10:51:17 AM »
Here's a thought:

Hire the architect first, then let the archie find the land in an area which you specify. I wonder if it's ever been done this way?

Joe
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Joel_Stewart

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2003, 11:03:31 AM »
A lot has to do with the type of club you want to build and topogrphy.  You should go play Wannamiosett CC in Rhode Island for the examination of perfect land use.
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Brock Peyer

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2003, 01:08:29 PM »
Sorry, I did leave you hanging, first I would give to church, then set up funds for all the children in my family for school, then build a golf course.  My wife may have another order.
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Brock Peyer

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2003, 04:59:55 PM »
Isn't there a Norman Course at Doral that crammed onto a few acres?  Didn't they play some silly season event there a few years back?
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RobertO4653

Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2003, 06:42:22 PM »
Matthew

Depending on wetlands and other mitigating circumstances it is possible to build everything you need on about 150 acres. I am talking about 68 to 7200 yards. My Dad designed and built a golf Course called "The Classic" in Spanoway Washington on 120 acres and from the tips it plays to 6900 yards. It is an absolute Gem that was built only moving 83,000 cubic yards of dirt. So in answering your question it not only can be done but can be done very cost effective. Also keep in mind the average golf course only has about 80 to 90 acres of maitainable turf.

Happy hunting for your site

Robert Overdorf
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Matthew Mollica

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2003, 07:58:12 PM »
Thanks for the advice and information guys. I'm very appreciative.

The plot of land I'm looking at, is quite wind-swept, and sand-based, with one boundary being the beach (350m). The land is bereft of trees, but boasts some 'shrub-like' low ground vegetation. There's no golf course within 30miles of it. Neighbours are grain and cattle farmers, and all on 100acre lots. I'm looking at a course boasting super-wide fairways, and probably common fairways, which makes the legals interesting.

Trying to maximise use and views of the limited water-front of the property would be an interesting exercise for the designer.


Matthew
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Bruce Katona

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2003, 09:23:49 PM »
Here is the rule of thumb we use to evaluate land to build a course:
150 useable acres for the course. This gives you room to position your routing as you see fit.
10 acres for a large driving range/practice facility
5 acres for a clubhouse site with parking for 150-200 cars
1-3 acres for a maintenance facility.

You can do with more or less, but these are good guidelines to go by. The corridors willbe wide enough for safety and still the holes will not be too spread out for inefficient maintenance.
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Michael Dugger

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2003, 11:01:33 PM »
hoW 'BOUT some ###'a

I'm probably wrong but purely pulling from memory.

Wannamoisett  90 something?
Merion  110 or so, right?

I like this stat.......the square footage of all 18 of Pebble Beach's greens equals but ONE of the famous double greens at St. Andrews.  How's that for perspective, as R J Daley alluded to, there is A lot to be said for scale?

Buy 300 and fit in 36 :D
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Chris Kane

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Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2003, 04:40:35 AM »
MatthewM,
Have you lost your mind?  
I'm sure Dr.Katz would be happy to talk to you.
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Chris Perry

Re:How much land do I need?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2003, 03:17:18 PM »
Quote from: RobertO4653 on August 02, 2003, 06:42:22 PM
Matthew

Depending on wetlands and other mitigating circumstances it is possible to build everything you need on about 150 acres. I am talking about 68 to 7200 yards. My Dad designed and built a golf Course called "The Classic" in Spanoway Washington on 120 acres and from the tips it plays to 6900 yards. It is an absolute Gem that was built only moving 83,000 cubic yards of dirt. So in answering your question it not only can be done but can be done very cost effective. Also keep in mind the average golf course only has about 80 to 90 acres of maitainable turf.

Happy hunting for your site

Robert Overdorf

Wow that does look like a nice tight track, and the bunkers and greens have some great shape to them, as well as the fairways. Looks like you really have to hit the right part of about half the greens there. Can't balk at the green fees either.

I assume it is relatively flat?
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