News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Lester_Bernham

Sandwich not right for the Open
« on: July 26, 2003, 11:31:05 PM »
Sandwich not right for Open

Bill Elliott
Sunday July 27, 2003
The Observer

The old boys with the keen eyes and a bagful of majors between them do not often agree on anything, but on one subject this week there was unanimity between Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson and Gary Player... Royal St George's is by a distance the luckiest, flukiest golf course ever to host The Open Championship. And either by inference or, in one instance, by declaration, they appear to agree with my contention that it is time to remove this carbuncle from the Open rota.
As the game's followers continue to struggle to come to terms with Ben (Who?) Curtis's outrageous debut victory last weekend, the original 'Big Three' were just as flummoxed as anybody else.

Nicklaus, in Moscow discussing new courses when his fellow Columbian took the title, said his wife, Barbara, looked up the results on teletext, then looked at him with an impish grin.

'She said, "Guess who won the British Open then?" I just shrugged and she said, "Ben Curtis" and I said, "I'm sorry?" I'd heard of him before, in fact we gave him an exemption for the Memorial Tournament in Ohio this year. I don't think he made the cut and I'm also not sure I've ever met him. I've yet to see a decent picture of him to know that.

'What I do know is I've never played particularly well at St George's. I won a tournament there as an amateur when I was 19 and never played a good round after that. It's always been a hard course for me. How could I shoot an 83 there one day and 66 the next, which I've done, and not feel I've swung any differently? It's just that type of golf course.'

Watson, too has his doubts about the validity of the Kent course as a testing ground capable of producing the year's champion golfer. After five Open victories, four in Scotland, one at Birkdale, Watson knows what it takes to win and understands the perversity of links golf - the need for a man to withstand the slings and arrows of particularly outrageous fortune. RSG, however, is at least one bad break too many as far he is concerned.

'I intend to be at Royal Troon next year. It's a different course to St George's, as is Turnberry, where we are playing at the moment [the Senior British Open, a reprise of 1977's famed 'duel in the sun', when Watson beat Nicklaus by a shot, the rest of the field spread over Ayrshire and irrelevant for the last 36 holes]. Here and at Troon you pretty much get what you deserve, there's not a lot of bad bounces here. St George's is a course you never really understand.

'When you play there you're always looking where you're stepping because you could go for a double-bogey very quickly and not hit a bad shot. There are at least a dozen places there where you hit the ball and you won't know until you're 50 yards from it whether it's gone into a bunker, it's in the rough, or, glory be, it's on the green.'

Watson points out that no matter who you are there are three fairways where, under Open conditions, it is all but impossible to drive the ball and keep it on the fairway at Sandwich. For him and everyone else, there seems no acceptable logic to the 1st, 17th and 18th holes.

'You need to be really, really lucky to keep a ball on the fairway there,' he says. 'OK, at 17 you can lay an iron off the tee, but you still have to hit the ball into a 12-yard area on the right-hand side and just hope it stays there.'

It is this eyes-wide-shut, hit-and-hope aspect that is most depressing. Golf by its nature should be perverse. Sometimes it is reassuring that the good ends up bad and vice versa, but introduce too much fickle fate into the equation and what should be a stern examination designed to identify rare quality ends up as randomly fair as a lottery ticket fluttering in the breeze.

There is no point grafting until you have control of the ball through the air at St George's because once it lands no one can predict the outcome on fairways that carry all the redeeming qualities of a seeded pipeline.

Gary Player, a great golfer who has never stopped thinking hard about the game, has no doubts that St George's should now be consigned to history. 'It's really not a great Open course. I think 80 per cent of people would agree that it is not a real true test of golf.

'Should it stay on the Open rota? No, I don't think so. Where should replace it? Turnberry should. It would be a tragedy if the Open never went back there. This is a great course with great hotel accommodations. The practice range is excellent and the enthusiasm of the people in this area is fantastic. It's also a lot easier to get to than Sandwich.'

So will St George's go? Will Turnberry be reinstated? Probably not. For a start the Open organisers, the Royal and Ancient Golf Club, have a vested interest in a site in the south of England. There are commercial reasons for this. These are not, however, overwhelming. It is all very well making a few pounds extra because London is nearby, but when the core point of the Championship is compromised by a course so quirky that Nicklaus, Watson and Player admit they have never felt able to play it properly then something is deeply wrong. And this is before we even start discussing the bloody scorecards down there....

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2003, 01:08:07 AM »
I respectfully disagree.  The course has some funny bounces on individual shots, but overall after 72 holes the course seems to still bring out the best players.  Ben Curtis won, but the rest of the leaderboard was stacked.  Curtis just outplayed everybody.  I didn't see him failing to get bad breaks that other people got.

Look at the leaderboards for the past Opens at RSG, especially 1993.  1993's final round was probably the most loaded leaderboard for Sunday at a major in recent memory (maybe the 2002 Masters beat it).  The others were fairly impressive.  I think Curtis had a great week and was the best player.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2003, 03:52:51 AM »
What's the name of the old poem about great champions who can't swallow their pride?

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


 

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2003, 08:18:37 AM »
What would Bernard Darwin make of this crap?  

Watson had shown his true colours, wasn't he claiming Sandwich was true links test earlier in the week?  And his favourite course is Ballybunion?

I hope this lot are thoroughly ignored by the R&A.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

A_Clay_Man

Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2003, 08:40:43 AM »
Agreed Paul. After reading this drivel I can't help but feel that the last ones to evaluate the qualities of a golf course is a pro. So subjetive, so far removed from the other 99.9% of golfers that their opines come off as sour grapes. Watching the seniors eat up Turnberry this week, is nowhere near the championship last weeks was.

The tightrope mentioned in earlier threads from the likes of Davis Love implying(or stating) that the majors border on "unfair" exemplifies just how subjective a 360 yard driver of the ball can be. If the course was able to talk back I think she'd have a knife in her teeth and the patch over the eye and with bandages abounding she'd utter words to the effect "so, you wanna hit the ball that far? Fair enough, go ahead, ha ha ha"  

She shows alot more class than those mere mortals who think their opinions should be listened to or even matter. Hit it, zip it and accept it, cause your stuck with it!


« Last Edit: July 27, 2003, 08:49:16 AM by A_Clay_Man »

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2003, 08:41:31 AM »
Well Lester, thank you for posting this article.

I disagree with them..  

I haven't won major championships, heck I haven't won many amateur tournaments either, but there opinion will most probably be the final nail in the coffin for one of my favourite places to play golf.

Carnoustie got beaten up by the players and the press after the 99 championship because of there setup but they want to go back there.  I believe the incredibly famous Paul Lawrie won that championship (Curtis/lawrie/curtis/lawrie)??!  

It would be interesting to hear TW,TB,EE,DLIII,GN opinions..

@EDI__ADI

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2003, 04:35:32 PM »
Was RSG setup wrong in relation to its golf architeture regarding this Open Championship?

I say absolutely!, in fact, I think I can say from remembering when Sandy Lyle won there some years back (86'?) it wasn't nearly as narrow, and presented even more problems for the professionals out there not accustomed to fate.

The fact is that they (The players) are going to complain about anything, all of the time because the ball is out of control, so is the driver, and it is wreeking havoc on the mindset of those who set up the courses, to the point hat they forget how the golf course was designed, and create one-dimensional golf.

Does this mean I don't like RSG. You have got to be joking! I say bring it on again!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2003, 04:36:23 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

rpurd

Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2003, 04:44:55 PM »
And RSG was a great open course when Norman shot a 64 in 1993??  This debate is complete joke........just because par was a GREAT score the course is belittled......I would play RSG every day for the rest of my life and be very happy........these legends should be ashamed for discounting RSG just because an unknown won.

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2003, 05:07:27 PM »
Tommy,

Thats a solid point about one dimensional golf.  

I believe the course only needed another 2-3 yards of fairway on some sides of some fairways most notably lhs #1, lhs&rhs #17 and rhs #18 and they would have been lying on the short stuff more often.. whether they would have shot better?  I doubt it - RStG does have a fine strategy attached to a fine routing. It's more than just a 'hack it out' course.
@EDI__ADI

tonyt

Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2003, 07:19:14 PM »
If I owned a course that held an annual tournament, the greatest compliment it could receive, or greatest justification of it's worthiness would be something like the following;

Final groups on Sunday include Davis Love, Thomas Bjorn, Tiger Woods, Vijay Singh, Kenny Perry, Sergio Garcia and Phillip Price. With pedigree like that Curtis won not because the course wrote off the champions. They were right there, and he beat them. Well done! How stupid to point to an unknown champion when so many greats were right there. Bjorn gets down in two from the bunker at #16, and we end up talking of a worthy champion ahead of a great field.

And for the previous staging, Norman beats home defending champion Faldo and Masters champion Langer. Gee, what a terrible venue!

So what's the problem? This was the most quality loaded leaderboard in recent Open history, possibly since the '93 Open at the same course!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2003, 07:44:59 PM »
rpurd, We do agree on something!


I do think they are complaining about the set-up though, and of course the writer is probably failing to properly quote them on that due to lack of knowing what they are talking about.


DJames

Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2003, 04:09:51 PM »

So, what would the "old boys" have said about RSG if Davis Love, Thomas Bjorn, Tiger Woods, Vijay Singh, Kenny Perry, Sergio Garcia or Phillip Price had won The Open?

As far as I'm concerned, Bill Elliott wasted space in The Observer with his drivel.

"...the core point of the Championship is compromised by a course so quirky that Nicklaus, Watson and Player admit they have never felt able to play it properly then something is deeply wrong..."

Nicklaus is, without question, a great golfer.  That said, just because RSG challenged his skills and apparently undermined his confidence does not mean that RSG should be removed from the rotation.

Different courses require different strategy.  Nice to see "quirks" that challenge.  Sometimes "par" is a great score!   ;D

Hopefully, the R&A will ignore the whines of crybabies.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sandwich not right for the Open
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2003, 04:45:37 PM »
From a journalstic viewpoint, I don't the think the article was a waste of space. If you can quote Nicklaus, Watson and Players saying that a given golf course should be dropped from the Open rota, that's news, folks.

But I don't agree with them. I especially don't agree with Player when he says, "I think 80 per cent of people would agree that it is not a real true test of golf."

I believe what Player meant was, "RSG is not a true test of the golf swing, or a true test of how well the best players in the world can score when the course is not quirky and unpredictable."

Golf, to me, is a test of a player's resilliance and imagination as much as a test of how long or accurate he is with a driver. Great champions like Nicklaus, Player and Watson used to know that, but apparently they've forgotten. Well, that happens when you get older. You get a little cranky when things go wrong. I hope the R&A ignores them, and continues to examine what's between the ears of today's crop of stars. Bring on the bad bounces; bring on the tough breaks. Let's see who's capable of keeping their cool when things aren't going their way. Let's go back to Sandwich soon.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back