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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #100 on: April 09, 2013, 07:05:18 AM »
 8) ::) ;)


I think Peper's cheap , and has become a curmudgeon,  I will forever read his work with a jaundiced eye!

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2013, 08:46:03 AM »
Well just when you think you have heard the worst about caddie-golf...along comes Mr. Peper with his disgraceful take on caddies. As someone who has had first-hand interaction with Mr. Peper on a golf course, while caddying for others in the group, I'll give you some insights to the source of those comments. I also know others who know him well, so these comments will have a broad perspective.

As a man who claims he caddied, and saw benefits from the enterprise...his take is the height of hypocrisy. He is known for his thrift. He even admits to it. It is this element that most drives his thoughts on caddies. He doesn't want to pay for something that is part of playing the game at certain places. When you go to a high-end dining facilty, you don't expect to pay fast food prices and order your food at the cash register. If you don't want to take a caddie or deal with the vermin, don't play or join those places.

What is most disturbing to me is that while he has earned a HANDSOME living from the game...for decades...he has NO CONCEPT of caddie golf's titanic, positive impacts on the game, throughout its history. He isn't alone. MOST of the those leading the administrative bodies and golf-related companies are CLUELESS when it comes to understanding how much they owe to caddy-golf.

Need proof? Let's remove from the R&A and USGA museums every artifact that has a connection to caddies, Remove every champion's name from the trophies of the various tournaments, Major and otherwise, that found the game as a caddie, or were taught or helped to the win by someone who caddied. What remains? Some DAMN barren space everwhere you look folks! But because they can't profit from it instantly, they ain't interested in acknowledging the truth or re-investing in supporting caddie-golf wherever financially viable.

This is especially true for George's take regarding his understanding of the evolution and widening appeal that American golf enjoyed before it turned to the excessive, unhealthy profit-driven mantra that has the game where it is today. Need more proof? Take a good, long look at his Golf in America book. Other than several scant references to players such as Francis Ouimet, Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson having been caddies, there isn't a single word dedicated to that aspect of the game which was CENTRAL to how golf emerged and grew in America. It is as if caddies DIDN'T EXIST! Go ahead, look at the reference portion of the book and try and find the pages that references to "caddies" are found....ZERO!

Any scribe that really wanted to get it right, and share a complete story on American golf, couldn't possibly overlook that element to the degree he did. He WASN'T and ISN'T interested in that reality. Sadly, George... and many others, including quite a few on this site, only care about...THEIR golf, THEIR immediate connection to the game, and have little care for its future health beyond what it gives THEM.

I get it. Try to play the best places for the least amount of money possible. If we can flush the caddie from the equation it gets even better...for ME!  Don't touch the sacred cow that is cart revenue stateside, and heaven forbide, a UK golfer might have to spend for something that they haven't done in their country.

Since George has decided to get personal with his assessment that caddies are basically a vestige of yesteryear, I'll recount a personal, firsthand, weeklong experience I had with him during my many years caddying at Pebble Beach. It was the mid-90's, he and Greg Hopkins, then-President of Cleveland Golf, were co-sponsoring the annual Holiday Father-Son Tournament that was held there for many years over the Christmas/ New Year break. It was my favorite event there. A wonderful opportunity for the family to come and play golf together. The gals loved it as they got to tear it up and rack up the credit cards in Carmel. Everybody won and it just was always a great week.

Well I'm working for Greg and his two engaging sons. We are paired with George and his nice, young son. His boy was maybe 13 or so. The weather was variable that week, as it often is that time of year, so we were all playing out of the carts so we could carry extra towels/gear and get off the golf course quickly if one of the frequent, vicious squalls came in. George DIDN'T take a caddie at all that week. I remember thinking...what a beautiful opportunity... WASTED... to introduce his boy to how one can work together with a caddie, to play and enjoy the game. Spare me the he might have got a poor caddie crap. He was co-sponsoring the event and would have gotten a good one had he been interested. As it was a competition, I couldn't offer to help and he wasn't interested in taking one. That was clear. He was polite, but indifferent to me during our three rounds together. It was if I didn't exist.

I had/have no animosity toward George. Rather it saddens me that he is so disconnected from what caddie-golf has meant...and will continue to provide...the game. That fact that he has been a prominent voice in the game, yet has so little regard for the greatest single source of golf's champons and differencemakers...is profoundly troubling to me. His take, given his platform, nourishes the cancer-like belief that caddie-golf has an insignificant role in modern golf. He... and others that share that view...ARE DEAD WRONG! History confirms it.

How's the health of the game George? Please look beyond your wallet. How is the game doing supporting caddie-golf, that most consistent vein of passionate contributors? You know, the one that allowed tens of thousands of those from modest means, WORLDWIDE, from the U.K. to America, India, Argentina, China and many other nations to earn, learn and REMAIN in the game.

Caddie-golf deserves an apology George. Especially from someone who has been fortunate enough to reap the rich rewards, financial and otherwise, that you have benefited from... following those monstrous footsteps.

Respectfully,

Kris

« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:08:23 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Joe Bentham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2013, 11:20:42 AM »
Anybody looking for a copy of 'True Links'?  I've got a copy I'm looking to get rid of....

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2013, 12:44:12 PM »
a young Jack Crisham, a young Victor Kmetz, a young Paul Thomas, a young Shelly Solow, a young Tim Bert or Mike Hendren or John Kavanaugh or Gib Papazian or Ran Morissett or Ryan Potts or Jeff Goldman or Jud Tigerman or Matt Cohn or even a young you....  hell,  even a young Terry Lavin. :).  And forgive me for all the guys whose names I have skipped solely for brevity purposes...

Give me a shack full of THOSE guys.  Nobody I know would have the slightest issue with that.  And that's the point.


Mike,     
            I caddied for 8 yrs at Beverly and was very lucky to get The Evans Scholarship to Marquette Univ. The WGA was incredible from a generosity standpoint- they even paid my 1st year of Dental School. This past year Beverly had a total of 10 caddies win the Scholarship - one of whom is Terry Lavin's nephew. Great success story for our club- I can't remember a year with so many of our caddies winning the Evans.Personally, it changed my life allowing me  a shot at a great education that my blue colllar parents could never have afforded. Caddying was a great job but I like to see teenagers use it as a stepping stone in life. Just my opinion. As a rule , I always take a caddy but prefer a high school or college aged one. I read my own putts and rarely need help with yardages as I know Beverly pretty well- still remeber the yardages from 30 yrs ago caddying. Great summer job -maybe the best I ever had but not a career IMO.


Shivas,

How many of these guys actually carried a bag other than their own?

While we are on it, how many bags have your carried for money and for how many years? Senior PGA tournaments? Amateur tournaments? Let's see what you got!

This is similar to the Philly Test. How many guys from Philly have actually played Walnut Lane?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/walnut-lane/

I am saying you got nothin other than preppy BS from the North Shore.  :D I know Kavanaugh never carried a bag for money.  :-*

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2013, 01:30:23 PM »
Kris - even if caddies were banned a player would still win every tournament, so caddies don't help players to win.

If it cost me £40 to £50 in cash everytime I went to the club, on top of my dues, I would either stop playing or join a club where I didn't have to pay the premium.
Cave Nil Vino

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #105 on: April 09, 2013, 01:36:29 PM »
Kris,

While I sympathise with the gist of your sentiment,  it's Econ 101.  There's high-end private and luxury resort golf and then there's the real world where $80 can buy processed carbs for a family of 4 for a week or 3 cases of cheap malt beverage.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 01:40:00 PM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #106 on: April 09, 2013, 02:25:45 PM »
Kris, I’m confused. You state that golf today is unhealthily profit-driven. I don’t disagree. Of course, that’s part of what Mr. Peper’s article is complaining about: that Caddie programs at some of the country’s most profitable resorts and clubs are just another cost making the game less accessible, and one with little value at that. You say Mr. Peper is “known for his thrift” as an insult to the man while lamenting the profit-driven nature of modern American golf. How do you reconcile those two statements? Also, why is it such a travesty that Mr. Peper didn’t take a caddie during his time at Pebble Beach you recount? I’m sure his sponsorship of the event was significant enough to dispel your notion that he’s a tightwad, and Pebble Beach doesn’t require caddies. What did he miss out on? Did he not have a good time? If I had a son, I must admit that I’d probably prioritize the Economics 101 lesson on “not paying for duplicate services like a cart AND a caddie” over the Silver Spoon 101 lesson on “how to work with a caddie to play and enjoy the game.” I’m sure this is just reason number 398 for why it’s a good thing that I don’t plan to have children.

You also imply that anyone who doesn’t care about caddies doesn’t care about golf’s future health. Can you explain that one too? I don’t know anyone who became interested in golf after learning that they might get to take a caddie, but maybe my experience is just too narrow. Caddies aren’t part of the attraction to the game for me at all, but maybe they are for others.

You’re a caddie yourself. With that in mind, in the context of the rest of your post, I find delightful irony in your sixth paragraph which complains about people who only care about themselves and their immediate connection to the game.

I do think your statement about golf becoming unhealthily profit-driven is compelling. That’s the crux of this issue for me. I like caddie programs that aren’t absurdly profit-driven or designed to support career caddies. I’m not a big fan of those that are. I love my club’s caddie program. I don’t like the caddie programs at several famed resorts I’ve played. You say that I shouldn’t play those places, but I don’t agree. I think in our free market economy, it’s perfectly reasonable to occasionally pay for something you don’t want if it’s part of the cost of getting something you do want. It’s also perfectly reasonable to then complain about it. That’s the American way.

I’d like to insert a socialism joke here that brings full circle the concepts of purchasing required services, industries on life support, and opposition to career caddies, but I’d probably be the only person who thought it was funny.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Joe Bentham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #107 on: April 09, 2013, 05:17:23 PM »
A major point that is being missed in the whole discussion is the fact that caddie programs cost private clubs and resorts money.  They are not revenue generators.  In fact the best any caddie program will do finically for a club is break even.  So nobody is trying to get more $$$ out of you by forcing you to take a caddie.  Clubs and resorts that have caddie programs do so because there is a demand for caddies and they are provided for their guests and members.  IF there wasn't a demand for caddies at places there wouldn't be a caddie program.   
Second of all there isn't a caddie in the world that wants to loop for someone who doesn't want a caddie.
Caddies turn into golfers is Kris' point.  I loop for tons of guys in the summertime who grew up looping and fell in love with the game.
Anybody having a problem with career caddies is out of touch with the history of our game, as Kris has already pointed out. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #108 on: April 09, 2013, 05:31:02 PM »
This discussion has turned too much into an us and them dichotomy.  May as well be religion on the table.  Can't we just agree that some want caddies and some don't?  I don't see this being a life and death situation either way.  Nor do I think Peper should be dragged over the coals for his opinion.  Its one man's opinion - not a problem.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #109 on: April 09, 2013, 08:00:23 PM »
As Joe intimated, perhaps his opinions on other matters should be scrutinized. His definition of Links courses is chocked full of holes. Hide behind a panel all you want, it's a bunch of hooey.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff Evagues

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #110 on: April 09, 2013, 08:20:33 PM »
I play public courses so I don't have this decision to make. But I used to play alot of charity events on LI so I could play Meadowbrook, Piping Rock, etc. These events as most of you know have the club caddies go out as forecaddies with each group. Coming up 18 at Creek Club I mentioned to the young man that I heard that someone in the just concluded Met Am had made a double eagle on the hole. He confessed he had absolutely no idea what that was. That certainly lowered my expectations of the caddie genre.
Be the ball

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #111 on: April 09, 2013, 08:40:08 PM »
Coming up 18 at Creek Club I mentioned to the young man that I heard that someone in the just concluded Met Am had made a double eagle on the hole. He confessed he had absolutely no idea what that was.

The Creek Club is so old school that they still call it an albatross? 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #112 on: April 09, 2013, 09:00:50 PM »

I’d like to insert a socialism joke here that brings full circle the concepts of purchasing required services, industries on life support, and opposition to career caddies, but I’d probably be the only person who thought it was funny.

Please post or send an IM. I thought your entire post was fabulous.

In reference to the rest of your post, I was the only one of my group to take a caddie when I/we played Pebble Beach and he was a great guy. The Cypress Point guys were, well I was happy to be there.  :D Life is situational....

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #113 on: April 09, 2013, 09:18:38 PM »
Quite revealing that noone has even attempted to refute David Elvins' post above.

Caddies are an anachronism from golf's origins as a game for the aristocracy and gentry. Clearly there are others who have a different view, but can we please stop attacking the strawman of objection to caddies being an economic issue instead of an individual preference?

It could be a matter of economics and individual preference.  My life is not going to change if I spent $100 on a caddie.  I just prefer to use my money on other things.  If someone wants to call me cheap, it is rude, maybe even wrong, but I can live with it.

This topic has been covered several times before.  I am personally uncomfortable with the servant/master relationship, and I recall that a number of others mentioned the same.

Joe Bentham-  I recently had the pleasure of meeting one of your colleagues, Jon Dodson.  Now I know that Bandon has at least two superb caddies! 

Jason T- be careful, Mike Sweeney is borderline socialist.  But do post the joke for the rest of us.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2013, 09:25:49 PM »


Jason T- be careful, Mike Sweeney is borderline socialist.  But do post the joke for the rest of us.

Not sure if driving a Lexus through Harlem counts, but I have been called worse!

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2013, 09:39:55 PM »
My take on all of this...

Caddies are clearly a luxury item and the divergent views expressed here must start there.

For those that a few thousand dollars year on their golf expenses is a "mere bag of shells" then caddies can be seen as a nice addition to the game and a better one is nicer than a bad one. Some prefer to support a scholar's program with younger students while while others don't care as long as the caddy is good. Not being concerned with the cost of mandatory caddies at high end clubs is one of the hurdles of wealth/income that allow one to be a member at these clubs. Caddy fees as a percentage of income/wealth for the average Augusta/Merion/etc. club is likely less than most golfer's cart fees at the kocal public.

Then you have those who have some discretionary income and can take a caddy at high end resorts or special days at high end clubs. Some will view good caddies as a luxury item to splurge on at times but also realize that having a caddy program at their clubs would price them out. Others view being forced to take a caddy as an additional unneeded expense and will grudgingly take them given no other choice, but are not happy with it and will not take one if given a choice.

Lastly, there are those that the marginal cost of a caddy prices them out of many golfing experiences and view the mandatory nature of them as onerous.

My dad got introduced to the game at Suburban GC in New Jersey and I have a soft spot for the fading myth of the local kid getting a view into a better life through the caddy yard. I have had great caddy experiences at St Andrews, Baltusrol, Lancaster and others, as well as some ok and some lousy ones at places that will go unnamed. However, my station in life means that the marginal cost of regular caddy services has meaning to the rest of my life. My club has no caddy program and I know that I would not personally get enough utility on repeated home course plays out of a caddy program to justify an additional $3,000+ a year in fees. This would likely force me to drop my club membership and either find a club with no program or go back to the publics.

I think that Peper was trying to say that the Caddy was going the way of the personal valet or the washer woman. It was not long ago that a much broader swath of society routinely had domestic help and expected more personal services in their daily lives outside of the home. For various reasons these types of personal services are moving out of the middle and upper-middle classes' frame of reference. His tone was deaf, but the idea that a member at anything other than an upper-crust club could be expected to support a full-service caddy program is very reasonable, in both the US and especially in the British economy at the moment.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #116 on: April 09, 2013, 09:41:43 PM »
 :'( >:( :P

DScmidt your last post was borderline ridiculous. You "know for a fact that there aren't any caddies that hustle or care about the game" .  You really are clueless in this regard. I can name you twenty five caddies off the top of my head that are great, caring , intelligent  people, and don't even have to leave Clementon, NJ to do so. I'm quite sure they also know more than a little about the game we all,profess to love. Sure  there are bad caddies everywhere, just as there are bad food servers, accountants , lawyers , doctors, and yes , golf course architects too.  

When I took my one trip to Ireland I had a fabulous older caddy named John , who not only knew all the best places to get a pint , but also was an amazing meteorologist . He wasn't a great technical golf expert, but I sure enjoyed his company , and I guess he liked us because they invited us all down to the local bar and spent half their fee buying drinks. So I think you owe some of the people you dissed an apology, no doubt you had a short bout of something when you posted!  

I get it that some people don't want /need a caddy....but just because that is your preference you don't have to call for the obliteration of the species.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:51:00 PM by archie_struthers »

Mike Sweeney

Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #117 on: April 09, 2013, 09:46:20 PM »
Caddy fees as a percentage of income/wealth for the average Augusta/Merion/etc. club is likely less than most golfer's cart fees at the kocal public.


Jim,

The concept that the "average Merion" member doesn't sweat the caddie fees in not accurate. I have wealthy friends and regular guy friends at Merion. It is a very democratic (not a political statement Lou!) membership because it can be. Same for Winged Foot.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #118 on: April 09, 2013, 09:53:32 PM »


Jason T- be careful, Mike Sweeney is borderline socialist.  But do post the joke for the rest of us.

Not sure if driving a Lexus through Harlem counts, but I have been called worse!

"Bonfire of the Vanities?"   ;D

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #119 on: April 09, 2013, 10:24:50 PM »
 ::) ::) ::)

I have no reason to cover for anyone that caddies, even if some of them remain my best friends thirty years removed from working together. I'm comfortable that I really do know at least twenty five great caddies that currently work at Pine Valley, and of course there's a few there that I'd prefer not to have. Don't know why you are sweeping with a broom when a brush will do.  
 
The club where I play most of my golf doesn't have loopers of any age, and it probably wouldn't work given our membership, a mix of all socioeconomic groups. Given my affinity for loopers , I'd appreciate the service but it wouldn't work well at Greate Bay.
So be it !  Throw in liability issues that you never had in the seventies and eighties for clubs and the issue of young , cheap labor comes into a clearer focus. I never had to sign working papers, and I can tell you unequivocally that my parents wouldn't dare show up and yell at the caddy master if I didn't get out. Imagine an 11 year old carrying two bags or getting hit  with a ball today without any issues?

Think about it . I'm telling you my caddy at Portstewart in Northern Ireland might not have been Bones or  Fluff, but if I'm ever lucky enough to go back there I sure as hell hope John is available.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 06:20:20 AM by archie_struthers »

Paul OConnor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #120 on: April 10, 2013, 08:39:09 AM »
Dave,

I am sympathetic to your "the kids are alright" viewpoint, but consider this:  for a bunch of the older loopers, they are there because the golf course is the only place they can make a buck.

If you lost your job, your wife left you, you got thrown in jail for drunk driving, your law license was rescinded, you had no insurance and got hurt,  and then you lost your house, and every penny of your savings, what would you do?  If you had to eat TODAY, and you didn't have a cent, what would you do?  For some guys in this situation, they go try to catch a loop and make it to the next day.  I have known many guys in situations like these.  They had no where else to go, so they go to the caddy shack, try to make a few bucks, and try to start piecing their lives back together.  This kind of shit happens everyday.

Ask Greg Kunkel how many guys he helped get back on their feet exactly this way. 

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #121 on: April 10, 2013, 09:34:53 AM »
DSchmidt,

Your assertion that ALL veteran(ie. "honor" caddies or whatever) caddies don't hustle is about as absurd a statement as I've read on this site. You often have solid points when you post, but you are way off on this one. Sure, there are caddies that coast out there...that happens in any job situation.

I was just visiting several area Philly caddie clubs discussing this very issue with their caddiemasters. I recounted several experiences of mediocre effort I encountered during a few of my rounds the past season. I stressed that these marginal levels were/are very damaging to the overall, consistent delivery of service by the caddie staff. I agree 100% that an experience that doesn't have the value it should, especially with "experienced" folks doing the job, is unnacceptable and needs addressing. Otherwise, why offer it in the first place?

As to your claim that EVERYONE on this board agrees with your take...I do not...AT ALL...so that FACT is not reality. There are MANY others who know that isn't the case. If you believe that beating your player to the drive is what caddying is all about...wow. Was the caddy carrying two bags? If he/she wasn't... and isn't keeping up, that caddie master needs to be illuminated to that situation and the caddy should be let go if they don't improve their effort. It's that simple. If the caddie is a slacker...they shouldn't be on the course...period. Many facilities don't invest in hiring an individual who really knows how to run a first-rate program. Therein lies the problem. Poor mentoring and management will quickly have ANY endeavor on the slide.

"I don't care" really cuts to how you seem to feel. These aren't my words. They are yours.

Jeff Evagues,

The situation of the rather clueless caddie can often occur when large events are hosted at places that don't have a deep pool of astute caddies. Few facilities have enough regular rounds to keep an army of good caddies busy. When an event of large scale comes along they frequently call other clubs or resort to trying to find folks to "caddie." That often leads to inexperienced or green caddies filtering in to the equation. Which leads to moments such as you described.

Despite the low regard for caddies held by many who haven't experienced what a quality caddie can add to a round, as is the case with any job done well...it's an art! Not everyone can caddie. I've seen low handicap players who BLOW at caddying for others.

Joe Bentham,

Thanks for your insights and understanding of my views. We do have to be careful when we assess what we think caddie programs "cost" facilities. It depends on the model and how it is run. Private/daily fee clubs can both SAVE and ADD significant dollars to their bottom line when they have a quality caddie program and understand how to utilize them properly. Caddies often: assist the starter or caddie master in pulling bags from the drop-off area or bagroom, clean/prep carts for daily play, shag balls on the range perimeter that the picker can't hit, keep the outside service area tidy, sand and seed divots on the fairways, rake out bunkers, fix damaging ball marks, get food at the grill/snack shack, buy apparel in the shop etc. etc. If you treat your caddies well they will gladly perform those additional duties!

Many of these tasks that caddies historically performed regularly at facilities... for DECADES, off the clock ... became the domain of the bloated "outside services staff/greeter mantra" that proliferated more recently, That, and ever-larger green staff crew to deliver over the top conditioning to the courses really drove the cost escalation at most facilities, along with the aircraft-carrier sized clubhouses, over the top F&B expectations etc. Caddie golf alone NEVER buried a club financially folks...get real!

Jason Thurman,

I'll try to add a little clarity to the "confusion." First, I don't presently caddie for a living. I'm a certified arborist who helps folks with tree/shrub related issues. That said, I caddied for the better part of 35 years, finding the game there as a youth and then professionally afterwards. Along with paying for my ENTIRE college education myself. Accomplishing that in large parts thanks to my work ethic while caddying and landscaping summers, along with a partial J. Wood Platt Caddie Scholarship award that my regular club, Radnor Valley C.C.(which sadly no longer has a program) membership supported. NO WAY that I'm writing to you now WITHOUT caddie golf as my entree to the game. Tens of thousands of others have that same avenue to thank. Including many of our game's greatest champions and differencemakers. If you can't grasp the significance of that, I suggest you do some more reading and you might gain some better appreciation for caddie golf's contributions to the game I'm sure you'd claim you love!

As to Mr. Peper, I didn't insult him at all. He HIMSELF has admitted he is "cheap." I've heard this directly from others, FIRSTHAND, that know him well. Spare me. When someone has a platform in a journalistic capacity...OBJECTIVITY is paramount, even when they opine. If he is going to slam something he clearly knows precious little about, to an equally, often under-informed public...SORRY...I will call his slant into question, and illuminate others as to what is really behind the mask. ESPECIALLY when the guy hasn't done his homework...AND HE EVEN wrote a book on it! Are you kidding me pal?

Addressing why the game... and caddie golf is in a decaying state at present, I saw this evolve first hand. I lived it. There was no reason for it other than greed; what affected caddie golf most negatively was the "cart revenue" mania that took hold and held sway, beginning in the latter 70's, aided by a relentless drumbeat of their "profit margin" by the various cart companies. Many hidden costs were conviently glossed over and some misguided clubs even gave this revenue opportunity to the pros for a while so they didn't have to increase their salaries. That forced the pro to often promote carts INSTEAD of supporting a robust caddie program. They made MORE money with every cart that went out. It was a very damaging scenario, even if unintended, that started the decline of caddie golf. Of course the club took that cart revenue opportunity back once they realized the money being taken in, but the damage to caddie golf had been done and it was significant.

Cart company sponsorship of PGA events and professional tours added to the momentum. The industry basically abandoned the greatest single source of its champions and differencemakers for "profit." That shift has "cost" the game's health dearly, on many levels, especially in America.

Caddie golf is the healthiest bargain in the game when it is well-run and financially viable. It will always be a FRACTIONAL percentage of the way the game is played. I and anybody who is objective will AGREE with that. It is a small, but VITAL avenue that has contributed MORE to the game, THROUGHOUT golf history, than any other single source. It's irrefutable. So why the distain for it by so many, including quite a few on this site, when it has had an immense, positive impact on the very game these folks profess to cherish? It doesn't add up. Many will rarely ever even have to deal with the decision to take one or not. For those that do...yes, it is part of playing at certain places, just like when you go to a top restaurant, you don't order at the cash register. You have a choice to go there or not.

For the record, I'm not for "mandatory" caddie programs. I believe as long as the facility and course is of a superior caliber, and the program is well-run, there will be a demand for caddie-golf. Unfortunately, often unless a caddie-club culture is re-inforced by some mandates, certain members will place thrift at the front of the decision and NOT support the caddie program. From my view, the membership application process is the best place to ensure that you will be a caddie club if that is the culture you with to have. Basically...."We play caddie-golf here. While we do not expect you to take a caddie every round, if you wish to be a member here, and remain in good standing, we expect you to support the program by taking them frequently." Is that so much to ask? If the answer is yes, then that person probably should look for another club.

I'll close by touching on your issue with "career" caddies. Many of us love the game so much we want to LIVE it...so some of us CHOOSE to caddie. I know that concept is VERY difficult for some, including some on this site, to grasp. I can say with FULL confidence, that many quality caddies know more about this game AND life, on MANY levels, than most who think they are above them. Few caddies will ever get more than a basic existence out of it on the financial end. That's not why they do it. Now there are also FAR too many who fall into it and coast. They don't really bring it everyday. That's regrettable. It's part of every job pool known to man. It ain't exclusive to caddie golf. Yet many, including sadly, folks on this site, delight in taking pot shots at caddies. It's easy to do. As it is anywhere you care to point.

I was fortunate to be mentored by some great, old school caddies who took an interest in me, helped me quickly learn a game I knew NOTHING about when I found the caddie yard. They helped shape and changed my life, along with those wonderful Jewish members who believed in helping a young, hustling Catholic kid try to succeed in life. I will NEVER forget or stop trying to repay their spirit and all that those in the game have SHARED with me! I'll not be able square the balance sheet on those treasured gifts, but I WILL die trying.  

Hope that helps clear up the confusion?

 
Mark Chaplin,

Why do you insist on hanging on an isolated point and not at least accept the fact that while YOU may CHOOSE not to partake personally, there is merit to what the caddie golf dynamic has AND continues to contribute to the game....DESPITE the industry basically doing NOTHING to support it? History confirms it. It's right in front of you if you look.

I agree 100% that if you don't want to pay for a caddie...you join elsewhere. Again, caddie golf is a small fraction of the total way the game is played. You may take issue with having that as part of the tariff to play certain places. Such is life. I wish I could belong to, or play any number of places...what do I do, cry remuneration or class discrimination?

As to a caddie not helping a player to a win. You are kidding me right? I've heard NUMEROUS times, firsthand, and have seen TV interviews, where the PLAYER credited the caddie to helping them to the win. While I'm the first to give the player major credit for victory...THEY hit the shots and had the most difficult tasks... a superior effort in preparation and teamwork with a caddie OFTEN has a less-talented player rise up and BEAT better players. It doesn't happen all the time. It can't. Over time, superior talent wins the day percentage wise. But NOT always.

I'll give you a firsthand indication of what a quality caddie can mean to a player winning a tournament. The year 2000, the California State Amateur Champion that year was Nick Jones. He walked on the golf team at USC(University of Southern California, a Top-25 program at the time) and started all four years. He was team-mates with current tour player Stadler.

He also can claim to have done something Tiger NEVER did. Tiger didn't win a Cal State Am Title. He only played in one and lost in the semis. I'll never forget the smile that came over Nick's face when I pointed that out to him. Priceless! Double that joy as Tiger also won at Pebble that same year, in 2000. It gets no sweeter than that.

You know who was on the bag that week? Me. Do you know how many collegiate tournaments Nick won during his ENTIRE collegiate career...zero. He was and is a fine player, still holding several course records. HE WON that week. It wasn't a fluke. Beat the TOUGHEST regional field on the face of the earth. More PGA Tour pros come out of California than any other place on the planet. Look it up. At that time I believe 27 PGA pros were from Cali. That hasn't changed much. Where's Tiger from? Nick beat several players that week that were... or are... on the PGA Tour.

HE hit the shots. That said, his caddie did more preparation, and knew where to hit the gas or back off on that course, better than any other caddie, OR PLAYER, in the field that week. That year, because of the U.S. Open being at Pebble, the event was staged at Blackhorse/Bayonet over in Seaside. The courses, especially back then before the extensive tree removals and Team Bates multilations, were bears. Especially Bayonet, where the match play was contested. To give you an idea how tough it was, at Second Stage of PGA Tour Qualifying held there during the two prior years, the last stop before Final Stage, there weren't 10 guys under par, TOTAL, for those two events.

It was all about angles of approach that week. The course was firm. It hadn't rained much that year. You COULD NOT hit driver on many holes beause if you didn't shape it properly, you finished in the trees and were stuffed. The course WAS long, so most players felt they couldn't take driver out of their hands and give up that distance. Much like Tiger, who did it years LATER at Hoylake,  I had Nick hit 3-iron on most of the holes, even the longest of them, if the angles threatened to put us in trouble with driver. He came from 2-down in every match to win from the second round on. Closed every match out from the quarter on with a birdie. It was an awesome accomplishment. HE hit the shots. There is NFW he wins that championship without me on the bag. Read what you wrote and square that against the TRUE account I just shared. Get real.


To GCA and beyond.

So where is the game's voice for caddie golf? The greatest single contributor to the game...throughout its history. The silence is deafening.

Where is the proportionate re-investment to that avenue by those that have profited from golf? It has been pathetic to date. Yet millions have/are shoveled to the First Tee and other initiatives de jour to "grow the game." Really?

That needs to change. The corporate-driven priorities need a serious course correction. It will happen. When?



Respectfully,

Kris

 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:12:33 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #122 on: April 10, 2013, 10:30:05 AM »
 :'( :'( :'(

DS..... Your mind seems quite closed on this subject , pity.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #123 on: April 10, 2013, 11:57:54 AM »
DSchmidt,

You just nailed the problem! I agree with you 100% that if the position is coveted and vied for...a better service emerges. Facilities need a primer in how to achieve that. Most are clueless to what is required. With the dearth of information available on the subject, and an industry indifferent to really re-investing properly...the caddie outsource model and other nonsense finds its place...and you are on the road to the toilet. Kinda mirrors the state of the game, huh? It ain't a coincidence gang.

The health of caddie golf mirrors the state of the game. Run into any of the pro shop drones that I find more and more prevalent when I'm out playing? They have ZERO passion for the game and it shows. It's sad and really not their fault. They were sold the bill of goods, paid big money to get a PGM degree...only to land in the world of 24K for a 60+ hour week as a glorified shirt folder. What a sham. While those at the top fostering this crock knock down a million plus. And they wonder what's wrong. Look inward.

There is competition for caddie jobs. The economy is still limping along for many in our society. Make no mistake. It is up to the caddie master to raise the bar to a higher plane. That can only happen if the facility invests in hiring a quality candidate that has the ability to deliver it. It takes a real passion for it and hard work to develop a solid caddie corps. The mixed age group model is best from my view, provided the club supports it properly. There are those places out there where it works rather well, but it takes effort.

Glad Archie helped keep your eyes open a least a sliver on this issue. ;D

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:22:51 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #124 on: April 10, 2013, 12:19:16 PM »
Dave,

In the spirit of this week, how about one or two HH stories.

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