[Charlie Gallagher]

Tim,
  Sorry for transposing the i and e in your name.

[jeffwarne]

I think Brad is objecting to holes where the available strategic choices of the next shot in sequence is impossible to ascertain or evaluate. In other words, there are no cues or clues. One could make that argument about the Klondyke (#4 Lahinch for newbizoids), except there is a marking stone the hillside. My sense is courses like Stone Harbor, featuring several holes constructed with pretzel logic, are the target of his ire.

Doesn't this mean that the Alps hole at NGLA (one of my favorites in the whole world) doesnt work?  I'm no stranger to blind or quirky holes, but when I stood on that tee, I'd have sworn the green was in the corner off to the right. And I'll bet there are stories of people playing that hole solo for the first time ever without guidance firing second shots blindly toward that right corner and perhaps even OB.  

I wasn't playing solo, but that's exactly what I did, even after detailed instructions from Timmonds, who even lined me up although I felt somewhat guilty for interrupting him for "advice" during a story about Ted Kroll......

[Niall C]

Re blind holes in Scotland - the reason why I think blind holes generally work here is because they tend to have been about a long time and therefore have been tampered with and tweaked over time to make them playable, be that with marker posts, submarine telescopes a la Elie, viewing platforms or wide and generous landing areas without hazards. However they are generally self explanatory even if you sometimes need a marker post or reference to the yardage to work it out.

Brad

Are "dumb-stupid ass goofball holes" not just modern holes with quirk  ?

Niall

[Tommy Williamsen]

We all have played some holes that leave us scratching our heads.  I have played some that I thought should be blown up, but the were not the head scratchers.  They are the 420 yard par fours with a bunker down the right side of the fairway and bunkers flanking the left and right  sides of a relatively flat green.  It sure doesn't need explaining but i'd just as soon skip the hole.  We all have played that hole.  It exists on most courses.  Some of them are actually good, depending on the terrain, but most just stink.  Give me a hole that is over the top.  I can deal with a couple of them on a round, but don't bore me to tears.  I am too old to endure the pain.

[Sean_A]

So wrote Brad Klein in Golfweek Oct 2010 edition.  He went on to say, "On the course everything should be self evident, whether it is how a hole plays or where the next hole is."

This line may sound clever at first, but any digging will reveal its a rather throw away line that doesn't hold water.

Ciao

[Brad Klein]

I've never really counted how many articles I've written, probably about 2,000 in 30 years. So I have a few lines that, in retrospect, are clunkers. Much of that piece was about the need for course owners and managers to avoid having tor rely complicated instructions from rangers, signage pointing you to the next hole or around cross overs that are confusing, reliance upon GPS to tell where the hole went at all. I overstepped on the details of actually playing shots and lines of attack/defense as that was not really the focus of that piece. But in any case, I plead guilty in retrospect to overstatement.

[Tim_Weiman]

Charlie,

Actually, in my early years of playing #6 at Ballybunion I did always try to play sort of down the right side near the wall thinking that gave me a straight shot to the green. But, that never seemed to work, perhaps because I could never hit the required delicate little pitch.

Then, one day I discovered by accident, really, that coming in from the left rough (but ideally just off the fairway) made it easier to play the hole. Easier to hit and hold the green. Easier to score.

Don't ask me to explain why.

[Neil Regan]

Tim,

  Me too.
  I think the aerial shows that the green is wider from your angle, and effectively almost as deep as from the center of the fairway.
  Plus, the gentle slope off the left front, which sucks balls coming down the center line, can be used from the left to feed onto the green. It is almost rare to see a ball bounce short of the green and hold it when coming from the center line.
  Which leads to another often stated piece of local advice: if you are trying to land on the green, ignore the front half.
  And take plenty of club because whatever wind there is, is probably a club or 2 more at the green.
  (The first time that I finally succeeded was with a full 5 iron from 130. Flush, hang time probably 8 seconds.)




 

[Charlie Gallagher]

Tim,
   Thanks for the response,  it surprised me.
I have parred 6, but from the left rough and with the ball coming off into the collection area left. 50 degree wedged it to about 4 feet and made the putt. I always thought I had to be further right on the tee shot, but you're saying, not true.
There are two greens I have gone back and forth over at Ballybunion, 6 and 9. All you can do is smile through the pain and keep honing your short game.
    You want to talk about a hole that doesn't need explaining, I think 8 is the best short 3 I have ever seen. First time on that tee I looked at the two bunkers left and the collection area right and wondered why the bunkers were set above the green as they are. I got an education about 2 minutes later when the wind pushed my tee shot into the bunker closest to the green. I had managed to short side myself and was up against the revetment wall to boot. I hit a super recovery straight up the chimney. It landed 5 feet from the hole, trickeled by, gathered speed, and disappeared over the edge and down into the collection pit. I wedged it back up and missed my 5 footer for bogey. In a cross wind it is one hell of a great hole. You can par it from the collection area, you have no chance from the bunkers.

[Bill_McBride]

By contrast, I cannot figure out how to play #12 at TOC, so if somebody can clearly explain the strategy to my puny intellect, I would be grateful.

According to my favorite St Andrews caddie, the best play is to take all the hidden fairway bunkers out of play by hitting your 200 yard club down the rough toward the Eden course.  From there it's a fairly straightforward pitch not far off the long axis of the green. 

I still typically make a bogey.   

[Chuck Glowacki]

I think Brad is objecting to holes where the available strategic choices of the next shot in sequence is impossible to ascertain or evaluate. In other words, there are no cues or clues. One could make that argument about the Klondyke (#4 Lahinch for newbizoids), except there is a marking stone the hillside. My sense is courses like Stone Harbor, featuring several holes constructed with pretzel logic, are the target of his ire.

Doesn't this mean that the Alps hole at NGLA (one of my favorites in the whole world) doesnt work?  I'm no stranger to blind or quirky holes, but when I stood on that tee, I'd have sworn the green was in the corner off to the right. And I'll bet there are stories of people playing that hole solo for the first time ever without guidance firing second shots blindly toward that right corner and perhaps even OB. 

I wasn't playing solo, but that's exactly what I did, even after detailed instructions from Timmonds, who even lined me up although I felt somewhat guilty for interrupting him for "advice" during a story about Ted Kroll......

Jeff:  You made Timmonds get out of the cart to line you up?

[Kris Shreiner]

The key word in Brad's statement from my view is the word "SO" confusing. Subtle mystery, variety of lines of play, and assessing strategic merit are all vexing at times. That is an architect asking the golfer to think and ponder what he or she may be capable of pulling off. Go big or take a more measured approach? What Brad seems to be referring to are the cluster-f... hole designs, or a creative effort that falls well short of the mark and really results in a poor hole.

While I'm not a fan of blind holes or tricked up layouts in general, where it fits or adds some intrigue or interest on occasion is certainly within the spirit of the game and good design.

Cheers,
Kris

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting item so thanks Tommy for raising it.

Firstly, I recall an article about a Pro, I think it might have been Tommy Armour, saying something along the lines of "a hole is only blind the first time you play it".

Secondly, I recall reading that Ben Hogan used to walk courses he hadn't previously played backwards in order to determine his strategy for each individual hole.

With regard to the latter, I recall following Nick Faldo and Bernhard Langer for several holes during a practice round for The Open at Muirfield. This was fascinating, although very, very, very slow!! Not only were NF and BL playing numerous balls from all sorts of different locations and lies around the greens to possible championship flag positions but it was the chat between the players and the caddies, I think they were Andy Prodger for NF and Pete Coleman for BL, that was so interesting and how AP and PC were discussing the most appropriate lines and angles for the tee shot and the best lines and angles into the greens but how the discussion keyed on viewing each individual hole backwards.

Ever since I have always wished that those 'Strokesaver' map/yardage books we buy in Pro-shops were printed with the tee at the top of the page and the green at the bottom. See the angles. That great course manager and wonderfully smart links exponent Tom Watsons in his book 'Strategic Golf' has a chapter entitled 'Lay up like a pool player' with a nice illustrative diagram (page 57 in my copy).

All the best.

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