Will distance cause greens to be reshaped ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Par 4's are now over 500 yards and climbing.

Golfers are carrying their drives 300 plus yards.

Since the trend in greens is the need for speed, thus removing contours and flattening greens,

Will architects tend to build future greens, shallower, angled at between 30 degrees and 60 degrees in order to help combat length ?

[eric_m]

My experiences my be completely off, but I seem to have noticed two things about courses and greens.  First, the older the course, the more defensive a green is.  Be it false fronts (I grew up playing a Donald Ross course nearly everyday), extreme elevation changes from back to front, and subtle ridge lines though multiple points on the green, greens on older courses have generally struck me as far more subtle and imaginative that today's offerings.  Today's generation of greens, even greens by people like Dye, Nicklaus, et. al. strike me as obviously designed on a computer.  What you see is what you get.  Everything is sufficiently well pronounced that you can see it on a CRT.  On the other hand, other modern courses seem to have spent so much of the budget protecting the rest of the hole that the green is little more than a flat spot on which we put.

The second thing I have noticed is that in the rush to make golf attractive to the masses, diaboloical pin placements are as rare as double eagles (this is less true on private courses than on the public tracks).  While I may not like standing over a three foot put with a foot of break in it, I like talking about it in the 19th hole, especially when I make it.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

With irons and metal woods that hit the ball higher and farther, and with balls that provide distance and spin, will the shape of greens and greenside hazards be altered due to the improvements in technology ?

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
Yes. I think what you are saying is that a green designed for a two iron entry might now be accepting a nine iron.  Whether an old course redo or a new project, a green once meant to be placed on a 450 yd hole is now one you might have placed on a 375 yd hole. I try to do that now but it is more important than ever that people play the correct tees in order to have a fair shot into them.
Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Young,

Do you feel that older golf course will attempt to modernize by adding distance where available and changing the shapes of their existing greens where feasable ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Yes and No.

Greens will be reshaped by the "unknowing*" and new provocative greens are being built by the daring visionaries of Modern Golf Architecture.

(*a list of the unknowing an be provided, but it will take about two-five days to compile)

[A_Clay_Man]

Agree with Emp, Y & N.  Yes, if the future archie wants to dictate exactly what the top one percent of the top one percent should hit.

And, No, if even the lowest of low brow clubs learns what it is that makes their Dinosaur fun to play. I'll never forget thoe imfamous words from an assisitant at an old style school course. "We want'em small". What a waste of great natural contours.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy N, TEPaul, et. al.,

Do you think a trend of Greens within Greens will gain momentum ?

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
It is my opinion that distance should be added to the old venues only in order to bring back the shot characteristics that the original arch wished.  Therefore it is my thought that this has to be done in two directions...beginning in the landing area and back to the tee and beginning in the landing area and to the green complex.  Now in most cases it is much easier to move a tee backwards to create the desired shot value.  (for ex: a large hump in a landing area that is now being carried that used to be the landing area)  Whereas moving a green complex is another thing.  So keeping that in mind I would think that even with holes lengthened ,the approach shots would still remain shorter than the original arch intended.  How do you overcome this??  IMHO possibly the same overall green with deeper bunkers faster speeds tighter chipping areas and maybe a few steeper contours. I still think the best defense that the old courses have is the "short side"  make a guy pay for it. What do you think?
Mike

[john_stiles]

Mike,

Today,   I think every course would probably be some combination of all of these things that you mention to fight the distance.   If you have to do it at the old classics, I would favor moving some tees back ($$) where possible and getting fairways and greens firmer and mowing out (more $) to roll the ball away from greens where terrain allows.

Of your ideas,  do you think deeper bunkers would be the more difficult ?     Deeper bunkers may not fit into the overall architecture at many of the older courses versus just slight changes in green's contour upon restoration/renovation.

Depending on terrain and soils,  I suspect that deeper might also mean wider and bigger bunkers.  

So, switching to what really bugs me,  what will you (we) do when the ball/technology lengthens the 'drives' in 2008 or 2013 ?     Lengthening and making the bunkers even deeper probably will not be an option as much as bulldozing and moving further out of town.

The USGA should follow the old mantra and just DO IT if you know what I mean.  No one is dinking them out there anymore irregardless of what the fake fur headcover says.

More distance will cause greens, fairways, and tees to be  abandoned as well as reshaped.  Many of the muni's and public courses of today are just not interesting because of the lack of funds to update the courses.

Tommy N......    leave room for some of the administrators from Far Hills in your list of the unknowing.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,
They are at the top of it--starting with Administrator #1! I'll call him Alexander Haig for the time being because after all, "He's in charge!"

Pat,
It's funny you should bring that up, because you have to remember I belong to a club that has greens that are for the most part un-identifiable from the approaches, they look like one big huge area that ends up being a green with-in a green. Now I have talked intensively with the one of the three architects that designed this course, and he feels somewhat differently then I do. I think he fears that the public will not understand what they are aiming at.

I, on the other hand have found a suitable replacement for playability factor inspired from the Old Course an hour from my home.

But all courses can't be like that nor should they.Each should have their own "VARYING" character on and around the greens, yet based on principles from others. There is a difference.

This last weekend, looking at the Open Championship, I saw a lot of stuff I'm quite familiar with. Shots improperly played to the pin that took the worng part of the green and scurried about the oppostie direction. It's all about familiarity withhe greens and trusdting your instincts of what a putt will do and can do, knowing that it is defending the hole. "Stength at the greens" is what Wethered & Simpson preached when talking about how the golf ball and its insans distance was going to alter the very soul of the Game. I think it is our job to carry on that vision and understand and accept what they meant.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Great question.  I happened to be talking to Ron Whitten today, who probably sees more new courses than anyone, since, after all, that IS his job.  He says he sees more green contours in new designs than ever to keep the challenge up.  Just Ron's $.02....

I have noticed more reverse slope greens (or portions of greens) to make certain pins harder to hold.

I'm not sure about more angle.  However much harder that is for the good player, its 4X for the average player.  Butler National proved that details are important - not even pros could hold the across the line of play greens when the course had bluegrass fairways, but when they converted to bent, birdies started to appear as if someone was singing a Carpenter's song......

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff, it is times like these.............

btw, my Dad knew Karen & Richard Carpenter way, way back in their Downey High school days when they were in a high school garage band. No, Paul Williams wasn't around then, and they didn't sound like they did at their peak, but my Dad liked Karen specifically because she was a drummer. (That was his specialty too)

I know this in no way has anything to do with the subject, but its the closest I can get to the sories Tom Paul and Pat Mucci tell of they're Dads!

[Mike_Young]

John,
Lets play soon.  Bob is trying to get a trip up.
When I spoke of deep bunkers I was speaking of fairway bunkers more than greenside.  Because many were built to escape with a say 5 iron and thus the 8 iron or 9 iron of today need more lip.  So either higher lip where drainage will not allow depth or more depth where it will work.  I do think as Jeff states that reverse slopes are becoming more common.  With new wedges and grooves it is the only way to protect some pins from a shot that is slightly misstruck or is played from rough vs. fwy.  And I think that more pronouced slopes across greens will help to compensate for long but wrong side of fwy shots.
TOMMY
I have tried to email you over the last year and cannot get it to work.  Send me another address or maybe your new dsl is a different address. Take care

[TEPaul]

"Tommy N, TEPaul, et. al.,

Do you think a trend of Greens within Greens will gain momentum?"

Pat:

I don't know about that. That can be misunderstood and unpopular with some golfers for sure. I think Hidden Creek and Friar's have a good deal of the "greens within the green" effect but they're a bit unusual.

Seems to me there are some pretty darned interesting greens being done now though. Some of Hanse's new work is very interesting. I saw a par 3 green on an otherwise odd Palmer course around Fernandina Beach that was totally brilliant in my opinion.

What I wouldn't mind seeing more of here and there though would be something like #6 at the Creek. That's one of the damnedest greens at the end of a long hole I've ever seen. I don't believe it has much in the way of "greens within a green" but looking at hitting that odd little hook-like green has to be a trip!