Does Tiger's record at Torrey Pines confirm that

[Nigel Islam]

Riviera is the interesting one to me. He's played it a lot and grew up playing it. He had some success there, but was not able to break through. Now he avoids it like he avoids Colonial and Harbour Town.

[V. Kmetz]

Bill S:

Bethpage WAS shitty on Thursday-Friday in 02...but if you recall, the difference between tee times was monumental and Garcia among others complained that favoritism was shown to Woods who got much the better of the weather draw and that the USGA would have suspended play if it was Tiger on the course in the soup Garcia and others had to endure with no stoppage.

(That was also the first US Open where they employed 1 and 10 tees)

David T (and all):
Apologies;  I ascribed a Tourn of Champ to LaCosta.

Nigel I:
Also a bit interesting because it was the 1992 LA Open (Nissan back then?) where Woods was a sponsor-exempt 16 year old in the field, probably the first time that most had heard his name.  I give some slack to him on Harbour Town because of his 4 Masters wins and five Top 5s in 15 professional years...he's often toasty when they are done in Georgia.

[Jud_T]

How many majors has Tiger won on courses that didn't have 4 par 5's?

[V. Kmetz]

St. Andrews (x2)
Bethpage
Southern Hills
Hoylake

=5

Pebble Beach (was 2nd still carded as a 5 in 2000?)
= 1

[V. Kmetz]

Also Nigel, on riviera...

I can't recall empirically, but I recall some objection to the Kikuya grass/putting surfaces

cheers

vk

[Alex Miller]

St. Andrews (x2)
Bethpage
Southern Hills
Hoylake

=5

Pebble Beach (was 2nd still carded as a 5 in 2000?)
= 1

+Torrey Pines as the 6th played as a par 4.

So 7/14. He's only won 2 non-masters on courses with 4 par 5s. PGA at Valhalla and Medinah, correct?

[V. Kmetz]

correct...for he has 2 victories at Medinah.

In my post last night, I also failed to give Hazeltine honorable mention (with Pinehurst) as he has two runner-up finishes there in the 2002 and 2009 PGAs.

though the schedule isn't finalized for the next dozen years of majors, he ought to get some meaningful cracks at these classic tracks which are so intertwined in Major history

Merion 2013 US Open
Oakmont 2016 US Open
Oak Hill 2013 PGA
Baltusrol 2016 PGA (maybe another US Open by 2025?)
Pinehurst 2014 US Open
Shinnecock 2018 US Open
Oakland Hills - future Open or PGA?
Winged Foot - rumors still floating about 2020,2021, 2024
Olympic - have to think another will go there by 2025

the Whole Open championship rota, but specifically

Muirfield 2013
Troon 2016
(Hoylake and St. andrews in between)

and, though I understand the shifts of time, I would've liked to have seen him tackle some of these older gems that are no longer in significant rotation:

Inverness
The Country Club
Cherry Hills




cheers

vk

PS: I hope that as Tiger's career winds down over the next decade+, he elects to make one visit to each of the tour stops (or at least the ones that are still running then)

[Brian Colbert]

correct...for he has 2 victories at Medinah.

In my post last night, I also failed to give Hazeltine honorable mention (with Pinehurst) as he has two runner-up finishes there in the 2002 and 2009 PGAs.

though the schedule isn't finalized for the next dozen years of majors, he ought to get some meaningful cracks at these classic tracks which are so intertwined in Major history

Merion 2013 US Open
Oakmont 2016 US Open
Oak Hill 2013 PGA
Baltusrol 2016 PGA (maybe another US Open by 2025?)
Pinehurst 2014 US Open
Shinnecock 2018 US Open
Oakland Hills - future Open or PGA?
Winged Foot - rumors still floating about 2020,2021, 2024
Olympic - have to think another will go there by 2025

the Whole Open championship rota, but specifically

Muirfield 2013
Troon 2016
(Hoylake and St. andrews in between)

and, though I understand the shifts of time, I would've liked to have seen him tackle some of these older gems that are no longer in significant rotation:

Inverness
The Country Club
Cherry Hills




cheers

vk

PS: I hope that as Tiger's career winds down over the next decade+, he elects to make one visit to each of the tour stops (or at least the ones that are still running then)

VK,

Cherry Hills is hosting the BMW Championship in 2014. I know it's not a major, but it's a big event that we can pretty much guarantee he will play. Unfortunately, Cherry Hills is probably considered to be too easy for a major by modern standards. The course is 7400 yards but plays more like 6800 with the altitude. There were many mid 60s rounds in the US Amateur this year. I think someone could take it to -15 or -18 in a US Open there. While I realize, who cares what the winning score is? is the mantra around here and something I agree with, there's no way the USGA wants someone turning in that kind of score in their national championship.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

Are scores that are 15 to 18 under par indicative of a course that presented a thorough challenge to the best golfers in the world ?

While many claim that the winning score is irrelevant, I'd disagree.

If the purpose of the competition is the determining of the best golfer, shouldn't the field face a stern to severe test of every facet of their games ?

If so, scores of  15 to 18 under would seem to indicate that the appropriate challenge was lacking

[Alex Miller]

Brian,

Are scores that are 15 to 18 under par indicative of a course that presented a thorough challenge to the best golfers in the world ?

While many claim that the winning score is irrelevant, I'd disagree.

If the purpose of the competition is the determining of the best golfer, shouldn't the field face a stern to severe test of every facet of their games ?

If so, scores of  15 to 18 under would seem to indicate that the appropriate challenge was lacking

Tiger is the only one double-digit under par and winning by 6. Let's look at the rest of the field...

Through nearly 3 rounds the best are -9 with a round on the North course, the easiest course to par on the PGA Tour. Say the players toward the top of the leaderboard averaged 67 on the North, slightly better than the field.

That means that the South is defending itself reasonably well to all but one man. Is it an appropriate test to the PGA Tour? Probably, even if it isn't testing every facet of their games as well as other courses it is not fully responsible for the -15 on top of the leaderboard.

[Brian Colbert]

Pat,

I agree. USGA Championships should be contested on challenging courses. Which is why Cherry Hills is now irrelevant for major competition. But the architecture fan in me wants to see the USGA go back to courses like Cherry Hills, TCC, Chicago GC, Newport CC, and Myopia. Mostly because there's a solid chance I'll never get to see some of those courses in my entire life.

Another point about seeing a guy shoot -15 to -18 in a US Open: As we saw with Rory at Congressional a couple years ago, and Tiger at Pebble in 2000, these guys are just so damn good nowadays that occasionally it doesn't matter what the setup is. It's kind of like how good offense will always find a way to beat good defense in football, courses can only do so much to defend that 4 1/2" circle. The problem arises when you see a 3 man playoff at -15, then everybody bunched up at -14, -13, etc. Those kinds of setups should be reserved for the Bob Hope.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

I tend to agree, but, as much as I love the courses you mentioned, the game as played on the PGA Tour makes them irrelevant when it comes to determining your National Champion.

They really are, "really, really, really good".  Great actually.

Wind seems to be the one factor they can't "dial in" hence I think Shinnecock, when Mother Nature co-operates, will remain viable.

I'm just curious to know which course will be the first at 8,000 yards

[Brian Colbert]

Brian,

I tend to agree, but, as much as I love the courses you mentioned, the game as played on the PGA Tour makes them irrelevant when it comes to determining your National Champion.

They really are, "really, really, really good".  Great actually.

Wind seems to be the one factor they can't "dial in" hence I think Shinnecock, when Mother Nature co-operates, will remain viable.

I'm just curious to know which course will be the first at 8,000 yards

My wager would be Oakmont. With the room they have and the clubs' obsession with being among the hardest golf courses in the world for its own members, I think it's realistic to see that course get up to 8,000 within the next decade. Assuming they don't roll back equipment, that is.

For Cherry Hills to be relevant for major championship golf they would need to stretch to about 8,200 yards. The course would play about 7,600. I don't see the room on that property

[V. Kmetz]

BC,

Good call on Cherry Hills 2014 hosting - I too don't really care whether it's a "canonical" major or not, I just like to watch the top echelon of players (in Woods' case, the "toppest") tackle the classic courses (even in their current iterations) on a historical, comparative basis.  It's just a little more fraught with history when its a major.

I don't know much about Cherry Hills the course, but the venue has its niche in history, including a watershed tournament in 1960 that saw Nicklaus' annunciation by a sunsetting Hogan , Palmer's only US Open and maybe his peak.

I've lost perspective (and some interest) in the matter of what 7400 yards at mile-high altitude means...325-375 yard drives from 2/3rds of the field?  If so, it makes the 430 - 550 yard holes kinda unintersting and the 200+ one-shotters, a bit of a yawner too.  I mean they might hit 6 irons on a 225 yard par 3.

In that vein, PM's poses a good rhetorical question.  We don't want it to be entirely a 70 yard pitch and who holes the most 9 footers and in...though we do like that aspect sprinkled into the spectated round.

Even in conceding the many reasons why courses lose their ability to provoke the elite class to their best, there's still a vein in me that wishes there was an alternate form of competition - like a time trial, players go out alone with a marker, on the slew of classic courses not on steroids (The country Club - Composite, Inverness, NGLA, Canterbury, WFE, etc) and see how low they can go.  There's still a part of me that would like to see scoring like the 4:00 mile...going lower.

Thinking about PM's original question...

Looking at Torrey, Bay Hill, Muirfield Village, Augusta National, Firestone, Medinah...initially I see him preferring a course:

a. that rewards brawn (eg. permits recoveries to the green complex itself, and the bigger the miss isn't proportionately worse the result)
b. that has large greens


cheers

vk

[jeffwarne]

Brian,

Are scores that are 15 to 18 under par indicative of a course that presented a thorough challenge to the best golfers in the world ?

While many claim that the winning score is irrelevant, I'd disagree.

If the purpose of the competition is the determining of the best golfer, shouldn't the field face a stern to severe test of every facet of their games ?

If so, scores of  15 to 18 under would seem to indicate that the appropriate challenge was lacking

Scores lower than that have usually taken the USGA copout route and shortened two par 5's to make them par 4's.
but they get- 7 -10 under and then everybody agrees "it was the appropriate challenge"

[Jason Thurman]

Tiger's record at Torrey is very impressive, as is his record on several other courses. Then again, he's been pretty impressive on most courses over his career.

Going back to the original post, I don't think Tiger's record proves the thesis nearly as much as some of the success other, less heralded players have had on certain courses. I think about someone like Boo Weekley, who's been a journeyman player aside from two wins at Harbour Town. Even Davis Love, who's had about 1/4 of his wins come on that same course. Tiger's won a lot everywhere, but some guys definitely seem to play their best at certain courses.

[David_Tepper]

Don't forget that Sam Snead won the Greater Greensboro Open 8 times over a 28 year period.

[Brian Colbert]

VK,

Put it this way... On 500 yard par 4s at CommonGround (set up a little firmer than Cherry Hills) I was averaging about 3-wood 8-iron. I am anything but a long hitter.

[V. Kmetz]

Wow...

That's like 320 with the 3 wood and 180 with the 8 iron...perhaps more of us should be playing at altitude.

cheers

vk

[Greg Holland]

Having just read a couple of books on Hogan, I was curious about where he and several other all-time greats won their US Opens.  I am not sure what to do with it, or if it tells us much, but interesting none the less.  Here is the list:

Bobby Jones
Inwood
Scioto
Winged Foot
Interlachen

Hogan
Riviera
Merion
Oakland Hills
Oakmont

Nicklaus
Oakmont
Baltusrol
Pebble Beach
Baltusrol

Tiger
Pebble Beach
Bethpage Black
Torrey Pines

[Paul Jones]

I got to play golf with a touring pro (he is now on Champions Tour) and I asked him what was his favorite course. He listed 2-3 course.  I was surprised by his answer and ask why, he then told me those are the courses he plays well on (and makes money).

[jeffwarne]

I think players play well on courses that evoke certain images and feelings.
Places they have played well in the past remind them of past success, and allow them to forget whatever baggage they may have come in with.
A few good shots and their confidence is back.

Sorry for the threadjck, but can someone tell me again why I'm supposed to hate Torrey Pines?
Cause it looks really good on TV to me=particularly as it's snowing outside---again

[Nigel Islam]

Having just read a couple of books on Hogan, I was curious about where he and several other all-time greats won their US Opens.  I am not sure what to do with it, or if it tells us much, but interesting none the less.  Here is the list:

Bobby Jones
Inwood
Scioto
Winged Foot
Interlachen

Hogan
Riviera
Merion
Oakland Hills
Oakmont

Nicklaus
Oakmont
Baltusrol
Pebble Beach
Baltusrol

Tiger
Pebble Beach
Bethpage Black
Torrey Pines

Interesting that all of Tiger's opens have come on public access courses. Just a coincidence, but interesting nevertheless.

[V. Kmetz]

And in similarly ephemeral nature, in Bethpage and Torrey Pines Woods won the first time the venue was used for major championship play...

[Jud_T]

Shivas,

White courtesy phone.



P.S.   At Ladbrokes currently for the Masters:  Rory 5-1.  Tiger 6-1.  I'll take Tiger even up against the kid for a gentleman's wager.  Anyone interested PM me...