[Scott Warren]

Tom D,

Great to see 8 at Renaissance Club get a mention. That's a quality short four with a spectacular green and starts what's already a run of amazing holes, which I imagine will only become greater when the new firthside holes open.

[Paul Dolton]

Heres a list trying to avoid earlier choices.

1st North Berwick
2nd The Berkshire (blue)
3rd The Army Club
4th Parkstone
5th Whittington Heath
6th Royal Cinque Ports
7th Bude and North Cornwall
8th Turnberry (kintyre)
9th Purdis Heath
10th Siloth
11th Tadmarton Heath
12th Piltdown
13th Fortrose and Rosemarkie
14th Frilford Heath (red)
15th Southerndown
16th Aberdovey
17th Minchinhampton (old)
18th Camberley Heath

[Sean_A]

Paul

You sneaky bugger.  I am going to nick your Minch Old selection. 

Ciao

[Paul Dolton]

Hi Sean

 Im new here but remember you mentioning Minchinhampton. Played it a couple of years ago. It has plenty of character.

 Paul

[Keith Doleshel]

Only Tom would mention the 9th/18th at Aetna, but that is one of my favorite holes in the world.  I totally agree it is world class.  A great 300 yard-ish par 4.

[Neil White]

Had a dabble at this on the theme of courses I played in 2012 - a total of 31.

Whilst there are not many 'well-known' holes I reckon the ones I've chosen are 'sporty' short Par 4's worthy of inclusion. 

It amazes me how many of the holes fall in the same portions of the courses - I could've filled holes 4, 15 & 16 a handful of times more.

The list also shows I failed to complete the task - bugger. 

1       ?
2   The Herefordshire
3   Cavendish / Wrekin
4   South Staffs / Hawkstone Park
5       ?
6       ?
7       ?
8   Lindrick / Aberdovey / Church Stretton
9   Beau Desert

10   Notts
11   Edgbaston
12     ?
13     ?
14   Porthmadog
15   Blackwell (Yellow Tees) / Seascale / Church Stretton
16    Aberdovey / Notts / Burnham
17   Woodhall Spa - Hotchkin
18   Kington / Longcliffe

It's a pity that some of these fun short par 4's are on 2nd / 3rd tier courses so wouldn't be on many peoples play lists - still, not a bad eclectic list all the same.

Neil.

[Cristian]

trying to list some that have not been mentioned yet, from 8 different european countries:

1. Royal Ashdown Forest (Eng)
2. Eindhoven (Neth)
3. Cruden Bay (Sco)
4. Woking (Eng)
5. Dornoch (Sco)
6. Machrihanish (Sco)
7. De Pan (Neth)
8. El Saler (Spa)
9. Murcar (Sco)
10. Kennemer (C1) (Neth)
11. Oitavos Dunes (Por)
12. Hilversum (Neth)
13. Sperone (Fra)
14. Morfontaine (Fra)
15. Noordwijk (Neth)
16. Waterville (Ire)
17. Houthalen (Bel)
18. Ravenstein (Bel)

[Sean_A]

Had a dabble at this on the theme of courses I played in 2012 - a total of 31.

Whilst there are not many 'well-known' holes I reckon the ones I've chosen are 'sporty' short Par 4's worthy of inclusion.  

It amazes me how many of the holes fall in the same portions of the courses - I could've filled holes 4, 15 & 16 a handful of times more.

The list also shows I failed to complete the task - bugger.  

1       ?
2   The Herefordshire
3   Cavendish / Wrekin
4   South Staffs / Hawkstone Park
5       ?
6       ?
7       ?
8   Lindrick / Aberdovey / Church Stretton
9   Beau Desert

10   Notts
11   Edgbaston
12     ?
13     ?
14   Porthmadog
15   Blackwell (Yellow Tees) / Seascale / Church Stretton
16    Aberdovey / Notts / Burnham
17   Woodhall Spa - Hotchkin
18   Kington / Longcliffe

It's a pity that some of these fun short par 4's are on 2nd / 3rd tier courses so wouldn't be on many peoples play lists - still, not a bad eclectic list all the same.

Neil.

Neil

Are you thinking of Blackwell's 17th instead of the 15th?

Also, your mention of Porthmadog made me think of the 12th.  I am going for that over Perranporth - cheers.  

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

I have a new 11th.

Scrap Yale, welcome to the party... PAINSWICK!

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I have a new 11th.

Scrap Yale, welcome to the party... PAINSWICK!

Are you nicking my cast-offs?

Ciao

[Neil White]

Neil

Are you thinking of Blackwell's 17th instead of the 15th?

Also, your mention of Porthmadog made me think of the 12th.  I am going for that over Perranporth - cheers.  

Ciao

Sean,

Double checked on Blackwell and it is the 15th - but checking on the card it possibly doesn't fit the criteria - I marked it as off the daily tees and remember it playing short but that was possibly due to the conditions.

How I forgot about the 12th at Porthmadog I don't know - not too many options off the tee but what a location.  Glad you agree 

Neil.

[Tom Kelly]

1. Victoria
2. St Andrews Beach
3. Castle Stuart
4. St Andrews Eden
5. Dornoch
6. Deal
7. Woodlands
8. Liphook
9. Meyrick Park
10. Radcliffe-on-Trent
11. Wallasey
12. TOC
13. North Berwick
14. St Andrews Castle Course
15. Barnbougle Dunes
16. Notts
17. Commonwealth
18. Sherwood Forest

18 is slightly dubious, a touch long maybe but I was struggling with TOC and Berick already taken up on 12 & 13! I would have preferred to put Victoria's 15th in too but without another decent option for the 1st, it meant abit of a re-shuffle!

[Sean_A]

Neil

Are you thinking of Blackwell's 17th instead of the 15th?

Also, your mention of Porthmadog made me think of the 12th.  I am going for that over Perranporth - cheers.  

Ciao

Neil


Sean,

Double checked on Blackwell and it is the 15th - but checking on the card it possibly doesn't fit the criteria - I marked it as off the daily tees and remember it playing short but that was possibly due to the conditions.

How I forgot about the 12th at Porthmadog I don't know - not too many options off the tee but what a location.  Glad you agree 

Neil.

Neil

Jeepers, 15 is a 380 yard hole with a steeply uphill second!  I don't think (could be wrong though) I have ever hit less than 5 iron there.  We already have one guy named African Animal - are you going for Anglo Animal?

Ciao

[Matt Bosela]

Here's my list, using only courses I've played and only using a course once, which proved difficult.  I used 375 yards as my maximum.

1. Sebonack - 360 yards
2. Oakmont CC - 340 yards
3. Old Macdonald - 375 yards
4. Muskoka Bay Club (Canada) - 349 yards
5. Hamilton G&CC (Canada) - 317 yards
6. Pacific Dunes - 316 yards
7. Sand Hills - 283 yards
8. Dismal River - 333 yards
9. Prince Course at Princeville - 366 yards
10. Riviera CC - 315 yards
11. Scioto CC - 362 yards
12. Ballyneal - 375 yards
13. Sagebrush (Canada) - 320 yards
14. Muirfield Village - 363 yards
15. Cherry Hill CC (Canada) - 360 yards
16. Bandon Dunes - 363 yards
17. National Golf Links of America - 375 yards
18. Lookout Point CC (Canada) - 318 yards

I had some trouble with a 4th, 9th, 15th and also with a 12th hole.  Ballyneal's 12th is awesome but I would have preferred to use the 7th at BN instead (and use Sand Hills for the 8th hole).  But I couldn't find another worthy short par four 12th among courses I've played so this is the result.

I'd be happy playing this course over and over again!

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

Didn't see you'd considered and discarded it.

Taking my mates' palm-offs... it's like being a teenager all over again!

[James Boon]

Been mulling this one over for a while, and its proved easier than the full 18 unrestricted which I still can't decide upon... It looks like most of my selections have already been mentioned but there are a few new ones on the list (those struck out came a close second in the selection):

1. Brora
2. Blairgowrie Wee Lindrick
3. Cavendish Castle Stuart
4. St Enodoc Woking
5. Royal Dornoch
6. Royal Cinque Ports Hunstanton
7. Pennard
8. Askernish
9. Beau Desert

10. Silloth
11. Swinley Forest
12. Blairgowrie Rosemount
13. New Zealand
14. Ganton County Louth
15. Coxmoor
16. Burnham & Berrow Notts
17. Teignmouth
18. Kington North Berwick

There may be a few that have sneaked in that don't quite fit the "short par 4" equation, but this is how I recall them be it from the tee I played or the conditions making it that way. I know I discounted a few because they may play roughly as short 4s in regular play, but have a few sets of tees further back that push them towards 400yards.

If I get a few spare minutes I'll add a description / photos to those that haven't been mentioned before.

Cheers,

James

[Scott Warren]

James,

Interested to hear why St Enodoc 4 gets the nod over the same hole at Woking?

[Sean_A]

James,

Interested to hear why St Enodoc 4 gets the nod over the same hole at Woking?

Scott, I am not Boony, but

For me, Woking's PN hole is too short, or rather, its too easy to blow a drive over the top.  I don't think the PN concept is meant for a short par 4.  St Enodoc's 4th offers somewhat similar rewards for brute length, but the tee shot must be much more exacting than at Woking.  Plus, its an awkward hole because the lay-up is no great shakes - never a bad idea behind a drivable par 4.  Its almost like you are damned if you and damned if you don't.  Beau Desert's 9th, while wildly different, is also awkward in this way.

Ciao

[V. Kmetz]

If they are to be in order to their hole number on their own course, then:

1.  Fenway
2.  NGLA
3.  ANGC
4.  Apawamis ("Eleanor's Teeth")
5.
6.  Winged Foot West
7.  CC of Fairfield
8.
9.  Siwanoy
10. Riviera
11. Old Oaks CC. (Purchase, NY)
12. TOC
13.
14. Knollwood CC (Elmsford, NY)
15. Fenway
16.
17. Oakmont
18. TOC

[Leo Barber]

Here goes my New Zealand selection (lots of juggling and some tradeoffs to get my 18)

1. Wanganui New Plymouth
2. Harewood
3. Chisholm Park
4. Millbrook (Coronet) Arrowtown
5. Kinloch
6. Jacks Point Paraparaumu Beach
7. Hamilton
8. Paraparaumu Beach
9. Arrowtown
10. Kauri Cliffs
11. Wairakei
12. Masterton
13. Waitara
14 Cape Kidnappers
15 The Hills Pegasus
16 Otago (Balmacewn) Oreti Sands (hurt me to leave that one out)
17 Waihi
18 Titirangi

What say the other Kiwis

[James Boon]

Scott,

I'm with Sean to some extent, in that the centre bunkers on the 4th at Woking appear a great strategic device, but when I played they weren't such a big issue. Maybe that was the tees of the day or the weather, but I still think its a great hole. St enodoc maybe just pips it in my mind as I did manage to put my drive on the front edge for an eagle chance and also the ambience of the setting just puts it ahead of Woking?

Would I be right in guessing you would have them the other way around? 

Cheers,

James

[Scott Warren]

I share your feelings, Sean and James, that technology hasn't been kind to Woking #4.

That said, I didn't care much for the corresponding hole at St Enodoc. The layup is bland and the brave shot is near suicidal.

[Sean_A]

The layup is bland and the brave shot is near suicidal.

Scott

I think this is the difference in our opinions.  I don't think of the lay-up as bland at all.  I think of a good lay-up as hard to pull off so its bloody awkward.  That is why I prefer to have a go at the green or with the driver even if the green is unreachable on the day.  In this way I really like the hole - none of the options are ideal because all pose problems.  Woking's 4th is much more of a no-brainer blast away hole.  The tee needs to be further back to bring the PN back into prominence.  Even so, I like the hole as is because its more about trying to get a birdie than a par.  I don't get that sense wth St Enodoc's 4th.  I am aggressive to make it easy for a par. 

Ciao 

[Grant Saunders]

Here goes my New Zealand selection (lots of juggling and some tradeoffs to get my 18)

1. Wanganui New Plymouth
2. Harewood
3. Chisholm Park
4. Millbrook (Coronet) Arrowtown
5. Kinloch
6. Jacks Point Paraparaumu Beach
7. Hamilton
8. Paraparaumu Beach
9. Arrowtown
10. Kauri Cliffs
11. Wairakei
12. Masterton
13. Waitara
14 Cape Kidnappers
15 The Hills Pegasus
16 Otago (Balmacewn) Oreti Sands (hurt me to leave that one out)
17 Waihi
18 Titirangi

What say the other Kiwis

Good solid list there Leo

Its a tough exercise to do based in a country with so few quality courses to choose holes from. If allowed more than one hole per course, the list would look a bit different.

I would lean towards Titirangi 1st as the hole from there but I cant think of another course to choose the 18th from. I suppose its somewhat unusual to finish on a short 4. Arrowtown 18th might be a stronger contender for me but it would mean finding another 9th hole.

Having not seen Kinloch and with Harewood supplying the 2nd hole, I would maybe throw in the 5th at Thames GC. My old home course and a 280 metre hole where I have hit every club between driver and wedge off the tee. I never seemed able to pin down one way to play the hole that was more successful than any other. Great risk and reward to be had and often a key moment in setting up the rest of the round.

[Michael Goldstein]

Kiwi boys.  Told Leo I wasn't going to do this but here we go (off the top of my head)

1.  Titirangi
2.  Harewood (only walked this though..)
3.  Chisholm (OK leo..) Hokitika Arrowtown
4.  Millbrook Coronet
5.  Kinloch
6.  Jack's Point (Pram)
7.  Arrowtown (Would like to make the green more interesting but tee shot is a 9/10)
8.  Maybe Hamilton?
9.  Tarras ?

10.  Pram Beach Royal Auckland Cromwell
11.  Otago
12.  Hokitika
13.  Millbrook Coronet
14.  Cape Kidnappers
15.  Hills
16.  Kauri Cliffs
17.  ?
18.  ?

This exercise shows that we have a dearth of quality short par fours in NZ.  A symptom of the long and narrow attitude. And perhaps a diminishing memory. 

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