[Bryan Izatt]

Part of the economic success for Bandon is that it is playable in the winter in conditions that are generally passable, especially for destination golfers in the north where there is no play.  Not to mention lower, more affordable fees in the winter.

Streamsong's weather in the summer off-season will be brutally hot and humid, although no doubt passable for most.  Assuming they lower their fees in the summer (as do most FL courses) will they be able to attract in the summer destination golfers in sufficient numbers to be economically successful.  In the summer there are many competing destinations in more temperate parts of the country and continent.

Have you ever gone to Bandon in winter?  Would you go to Streamsong in the summer?  Can Streamsong be economically viable based on a three or four or five month winter season?

[John_Cullum]

Your definition of "winter conditions that are generally passable"is relative. I wouldn't begin to go to Bandon in the winter, because I would anticipate it would be miserable-cold, cloudy, wet and dark at 4:30. I don't enjoy that at all. If I'm going to pay that kind of freight, I'll cough upa couple of extra dollars and go in June

Streamsong will be hot and a bit humid in the July-September, but I can still enjoy it on all but the very worst days. The biggest problem with summer golf at Streamsong is the practically total absence of shade

[John Kavanaugh]

I've been to Bandon twice in the winter, both times on less than a weeks notice. The weather was perfect but I knew that going in. I would gladly do it again under the same circumstances.

I really don't want to go in the summer and fight the Pebble rejects. The people at Bandon in the winter are the second finest people in the world.

[Scott Weersing]

Part of the economic success for Bandon is that it is playable in the winter in conditions that are generally passable, especially for destination golfers in the north where there is no play.  Not to mention lower, more affordable fees in the winter.

Streamsong's weather in the summer off-season will be brutally hot and humid, although no doubt passable for most.  Assuming they lower their fees in the summer (as do most FL courses) will they be able to attract in the summer destination golfers in sufficient numbers to be economically successful.  In the summer there are many competing destinations in more temperate parts of the country and continent.

Have you ever gone to Bandon in winter?  Would you go to Streamsong in the summer?  Can Streamsong be economically viable based on a three or four or five month winter season?

I have only gone to Bandon in February when the days are long enough to play 36 holes. I have had friends go to Bandon in May and the weather was no different in May than February.

I think Streamsong will get more play than Bandon and be viable because it is located near major airports and it will be able to have golfers from October to April when there are not that many options for golf. I wonder how much play they will get in July and August. So I think Streamsong has a chance to be viable because of its location and the use of carts. People can play in the summer with carts even if it is 100 degrees.

I would like to go Streamsong and would go in the summer. I would walk and take a caddy because it is a great experience. I would hope the course would be less crowded and could play 36 or 45 holes in a day.

[Joe Stansell]

I probably won't travel to Streamsong and play it during the summer, as that's the time of year when options elsewhere are at their zenith. But the opposite is true for Bandon. During the winter, affordable options elsewhere are fewer.

My family has traveled to Bandon Resort for three consecutive years during the days immediately following Christmas. It is now our "tradition." We all love it, even when the weather turns nasty. There are so few people there that we feel like we have the entire complex to ourselves. Also, while we don't typically play 36 a day, there are groups that manage to get two rounds in, even during the "shortest" days of the year. And I see their motivation. Who wouldn't want to play this over and over again:

[Bryan Izatt]

John,

I've been to Bandon twice in mid-winter and the weather has varied between great and awful, but perhaps I'm from more hardy climes than you are, so my great is probably not quite the same as yours.  I've been to Florida in the summer and it was much more draining, even in a cart.  Walking would be impossible.  Besides, in the summer my course is open and there are lots of other options if I want a destination course.

Scott,

Walking 36 or 45 in the summer FL heat would be quite an accomplishment, if you survived it! 

[Tom_Doak]

Both destinations are playable and enjoyable for a lot of people during their respective off seasons.  I agree with Joe that the one difference is that there are fewer affordable options in the winter months than in the summer.

Streamsong's hopes to stay busy in the summer are based on:

1.  Being relatively close to Tampa and to Disney World, neither of which become deserted in the summer, and
2.  Building a hotel big enough to host medium-sized convention groups [professional organizations etc.].

That second option was a pretty big gamble, since the hotel costs far more to build than the two golf courses.  It was nice to have a client for whom that amount of money does not seem like a huge gamble.

P.S.  I walked around Streamsong a lot in the summer, when it was all open sand.  And I survived to tell you about it, Bryan.

[Mike Sweeney]

Would you go to Streamsong in the summer?  Can Streamsong be economically viable based on a three or four or five month winter season?

For a variety of reasons, we have gone to Disney for the last two Labor Day weekends. No doubt I would rather be playing golf in Ireland, Vermont or such that week, but Florida is not hotter than New York City on a hot day. Basically 89-92 degrees and humid, but it is 5 months of it rather than a few days here or there like up North. Tough walk, but very playable in a cart.

There was not much shelter out on the courses at Streamsong and the Florida afternoon thunderstorms will require a cart for safety more than the heat, imo, during the summer.  

Streamsong already has a "Florida rate" for Florida residents, but it was not turned on yet as I was with a Floridian on Day 1. Like every place in Florida, they will make adjustment in their pricing for the season. Disney is almost reasonably priced for Floridians.

However, when the lodge opens, they will have 220 rooms and the summer will be more of a challenge with the many competing options out there during the summer. It would appear to be more of a locals market in the summer.

Similar to the struggles that we have seen with many golf clubs, the surrounding infrastructure is way more costly to support that the golf courses. My guess is the courses will easily carry their own weight in the summer with proper pricing, but the lodge will be a big nut to carry. Unlike Bandon, the housing was/is basically built in one shot.

[Tom_Doak]

Similar to the struggles that we have seen with many golf clubs, the surrounding infrastructure is way more costly to support that the golf courses. My guess is the courses will easily carry their own weight in the summer with proper pricing, but the lodge will be a big nut to carry. Unlike Bandon, the housing was/is basically built in one shot.

Do remember that conventional wisdom about golf development is somewhat skewed when it is being pursued by a huge corporation.  The money is already spent, and I'm pretty sure they paid for everything from their operations instead of financing the hotel with a bank.  [I don't know that for a fact, I just know they certainly COULD HAVE built everything with cash if they wanted to.]  So, that's done, and as long as they are able to pay for staffing the hotel and maintaining it out of the annual room rates, they are fine, whether it makes as big a return as expected, or a bigger or lesser one.

[Stephen Davis]

I will throw my two cents in here although I have yet to play Streamsong, let alone in the Summer. However, I have played Bandon MANY times in the winter and it is my favorite time to go there. I have had many wonderful, and beautiful rounds there in the winter. Often the wind in the winter is less severe than it is in the summer months. You obviously may have rain, but in my experience it is usually a misty rain and not terribly severe either. I have played in Florida in the summer and I would chose Bandon over that kind of heat any day.

[Dave McCollum]

As a golf trip to Mexico taught me last summer, I’ve lost the ability to tolerate heat & humidity.  I’ll never do that again.  Who cares how good the courses are or how cheap if you are sick and miserable?  Played like crap to boot.  We played cartball resort courses.  That didn’t help me much.  I’ll take cold and frozen anytime over melting at a hundred degrees F in the steamy jungle.   Did I mention the black clouds of mosquitos?

[Ben Kodadek]

I really don't want to go in the summer and fight the Pebble rejects. The people at Bandon in the winter are the second finest people in the world.

Where would one find the finest?

[Mike_Young]

Similar to the struggles that we have seen with many golf clubs, the surrounding infrastructure is way more costly to support that the golf courses. My guess is the courses will easily carry their own weight in the summer with proper pricing, but the lodge will be a big nut to carry. Unlike Bandon, the housing was/is basically built in one shot.

Do remember that conventional wisdom about golf development is somewhat skewed when it is being pursued by a huge corporation.  The money is already spent, and I'm pretty sure they paid for everything from their operations instead of financing the hotel with a bank.  [I don't know that for a fact, I just know they certainly COULD HAVE built everything with cash if they wanted to.]  So, that's done, and as long as they are able to pay for staffing the hotel and maintaining it out of the annual room rates, they are fine, whether it makes as big a return as expected, or a bigger or lesser one.

TD,
I have always assumed that this was a required phosphate reclamation site.  Aren't they required to reclaim the sites anyway and aren't there some tax credits etc?

[Tom_Doak]

TD,
I have always assumed that this was a required phosphate reclamation site.  Aren't they required to reclaim the sites anyway and aren't there some tax credits etc?

Mike:

Yes, they were required to reclaim the site, and for a while there was a question whether the state mining authority would allow them to modify their original plan of turning it back to flat land with a few alligator ponds.  They were afraid of setting a precedent of letting somebody do something different than originally anticipated, even if the result was much better for the community; but eventually common sense prevailed.

The minimum standard for reclaiming these sites is not much ... I think they were committed to $2 million or $3 million of restoration.  Building a golf resort and a 200-room luxury hotel is a much more expensive solution.  I don't know much about the scale of tax credits for something like that, but I'm sure there is somebody in Washington lobbying about it right now.

[John Kavanaugh]

$2 to $3 million. I guess the M in MIT doesn't stand for mining. I think you are a little low on that one.

[Tom_Doak]

$2 to $3 million. I guess the M in MIT doesn't stand for mining. I think you are a little low on that one.

No, John, that's 3M company where one of the M's is for mining.  I don't know anything about it, just repeating a number I heard from someone early in the project.  They probably weren't the best source for the number, either.

[William_G]

from a golf standpoint, it is very difficult to compare SS and Bandon regardless...heat vs. cold, summer/winter

cart/walk
bermuda/fescue
FL/OR
2 courses/4+++
reclamation/preservation
inland/Pacific Ocean
somewhat remote/remote
Kemper/Kemper
Doak, C&C/Kidd, Doak,  C&C, +++
Mosaic Corp./Keiser, McKee
no prevailing winds/prevailing winds


looking forward playing SS for myself

I'm sure SS will be successful in the summer
Bandon is sold out this February




thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Part of the economic success for Bandon is that it is playable in the winter in conditions that are generally passable, especially for destination golfers in the north where there is no play.  Not to mention lower, more affordable fees in the winter.

Streamsong's weather in the summer off-season will be brutally hot and humid, although no doubt passable for most.  Assuming they lower their fees in the summer (as do most FL courses) will they be able to attract in the summer destination golfers in sufficient numbers to be economically successful.  In the summer there are many competing destinations in more temperate parts of the country and continent.

Bryan, one of the best kept secrets is that Florida can be quite enjoyable in the summer.

It's not unusual for brief thunderstorms to roll in during the day, cooling things off.
On July 4th, winds seem to range from 1 to 5 mph with gusts from 6-14 mph.
Early morning can be quite nice, especially at locations that enjoy good breezes.
But, those thunderstorms pose a real hazard and Florida leads the nation in lightening deaths.

For most Florida doesn't seem like an ideal destination in the summer, but, I think that may be changing.

It would be interesting to be able to obtain the attendance statistics for Disneyworld, just an hour or so north.

Have you ever gone to Bandon in winter? 

NO

Would you go to Streamsong in the summer? 

Yes

Can Streamsong be economically viable based on a three or four or five month winter season?

 I think it can since it's only an hour from two major airports and a world famous resort destination.

[Bryan Izatt]

I'm impressed by the number of you who think summer in FL is suitable or survivable for outdoor activities such as golf.  Are you sure your brains haven't been fried by pursuing such activities?    Remember that old saying: Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noon-day sun.

Tom,

Although Mosaic may have the cash to build the course and the hotel, I would imagine that their business management people would attribute some cost to the money being invested this way.  I assume they are not going to run Streamsong as anything other than a profit centre.

Patrick,

When those thunderstorms roll through and cool things off, the humidity also goes up to 100%.  Some tradeoff, assuming you don't get struck by lightening or drown in the deluges. 

Although Disney World is a tourist magnet, I'd imagine that most of that business is young family oriented, who would be less likely to be interested in destination golf an hour away. In the winter I'd imagine it is a good business convention centre too, because of the weather.  Not too sure that convention business continues into the summer.

Mike,

The Florida resident rate doesn't appear to exist yet. One wonders how many year-round Floridians would be customers for destination golf in the summer at any price.  There are a lot of alternatives and I'd expect that a lot of Floridians would already be members somewhere.

[Sean_A]

Yes, Florida in the summer would be a tough call to make.  Hell, I avoid the Carolinas in the summer.  If I am crossing an ocean, I want to play golf walking.  So for me, Florida would be out unless there were some unusual circumstances involved.  However, for a lot of Euro golfers, I think they would give it a go.  Is Streamsong marketing in Europe?

For me, Bandon is a long way to go in the summer or winter.  I would probably want to visit when I have the best chance for decent weather, but still in the off-season.  The summer prices are just never going to work for me. 

Does anyone know if Bandon is getting decent numbers from Europe?

Ciao 

[Patrick_Mucci]

When those thunderstorms roll through and cool things off, the humidity also goes up to 100%. 

Not really, the humidity is already approaching 100 % and the thunderstorms tend to reduce that as well

Some tradeoff, assuming you don't get struck by lightening or drown in the deluges. 

No tradeoff and the amount of rain shouldn't float you away.
I can't speak to the micro climate in the summer at Streamsong, perhaps Kyle Harris or Tom Doak could, but I've always enjoyed Florida in the summer and used to go there every July 4th weekend.  I spent every other weekend there one summer and enjoyed it as well.


Although Disney World is a tourist magnet, I'd imagine that most of that business is young family oriented, who would be less likely to be interested in destination golf an hour away. In the winter I'd imagine it is a good business convention centre too, because of the weather.  Not too sure that convention business continues into the summer.


The convention rates are at their lowest in the summer.

I can see a guy taking his family to Disney for a few days and taking half a day to go play golf.

Does Streamsong carry demo or loaner sets for those golfers ?
If not, they should

[Greg Tallman]

As a golf trip to Mexico taught me last summer, I’ve lost the ability to tolerate heat & humidity.  I’ll never do that again.  Who cares how good the courses are or how cheap if you are sick and miserable?  Played like crap to boot.  We played cartball resort courses.  That didn’t help me much.  I’ll take cold and frozen anytime over melting at a hundred degrees F in the steamy jungle.   Did I mention the black clouds of mosquitos?

Sounds like you went to the wrong part of Mexico! Cacnun or Vallarta?

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, Florida in the summer would be a tough call to make.  Hell, I avoid the Carolinas in the summer.  If I am crossing an ocean, I want to play golf walking.  So for me, Florida would be out unless there were some unusual circumstances involved.  However, for a lot of Euro golfers, I think they would give it a go.  Is Streamsong marketing in Europe?

As the old Palmolive commercial used to say, "You're soaking in it." 

As to your other question, I don't think Bandon Dunes does very much business at all from Europe.  Certainly not enough to market there.  But, Myrtle Beach used to, because it's a reasonable alternative to southern Europe for winter travel.

[Michael Blake]

Although Disney World is a tourist magnet, I'd imagine that most of that business is young family oriented, who would be less likely to be interested in destination golf an hour away.

Bryan,

I agree.

I'm going to Disney in a few days with the family (3 kids-4, 7, 9).  For me, leaving the family on a Disney trip so I can play golf is the absolute last thing on my mind.  I hope to visit Streamsong one day...just not on a Disney trip.

[Dave McCollum]

Vallarta.  You warned me beforehand, Greg.  What a stupid I was.  Vista Vallarta the steaming jungle, Flamingos the black clouds of mosquitoes, and Litibu the cartballer with a mile to the first tee.  Not mine, but my pals liked Norman’s Litibu the best—very wide and reasonably priced.  Sort of eerie playing those wide fairways beside the abandoned hotels and condos standing as a monument to the crash of ’08.

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