[Joey Chase]

We used it to renovate the putting surfaces at Yeamans Hall and at Mid Ocean.  Neither of those clubs runs a huge maintenance budget; their superintendents keep it leaner than what the salesmen tell you to do, and it doesn't get so thatchy that way.  I'm a big fan of it, although we used MiniVerde instead at Streamsong, because they'd had such great results with it at another course close by.

It's funny you keep saying it is Champion at Mid Ocean.  After talking to Norman when I was working in Bermuda and again looking at their website they say it is TifEagle.

[Tom_Doak]

Joey:

My mistake I guess.  I thought that Patrick O'Brien, the USGA agronomist, recommended Champion to them, but he does do a lot of business in Tifton.  You would never be able to tell them apart from looking at the sprigs, I can tell you that much.

[Joey Chase]

Joey:

My mistake I guess.  I thought that Patrick O'Brien, the USGA agronomist, recommended Champion to them, but he does do a lot of business in Tifton.  You would never be able to tell them apart from looking at the sprigs, I can tell you that much.

They decided to go with TifEagle at Port Royal as a result of the success at Mid Ocean.  I was surprised it was Bermuda after playing Mid Ocean the first time as they rolled so true and were receptive and had good pace to them.  It was one of my first times playing on the newer dwarf bermudas. 

[John Shimp]

Thats interesting that they (tifeagle vs champion) don't look different as sprigs.  I've played a lot of each in SC and find the tifeagle to be much grainier.  Literally into the grain the tifeagle will take on an evergreen dark color and down grain a slate green color.  Really hard to putt I think.  The champion has always been more consistent and less grainy from my experience.  In fact, I'd put miniverde up there with champion but just behind and tifeagle far behind.

 Is my "bad" tifeagle experience possibly from poorer maintenance vs what I have seen on champion or miniverde?  For instance, at Palmetto which has very healthy miniverde a weekly verticut has kept the surfaces great and the grain down.  Not sure if that is what they do at Yeamans which has excellent champion bermuda surfaces?

Last I've seen courses in SC adding just a bit of Poa Trivialis (sp?) overseed in the winter vs painting which is really nice.  Seems to die off quicikly in the spring.

[Don_Mahaffey]

 If I'm grassing with an ultradwarf, I'm using Champion. I do think there is a difference. The 'thatch" issue that Champion gets tagged with is partly due to negative marketing by Mini verde and Tif eagle suppliers, and also a result of following industry guidelines that would have you putting down so much fert that any turf would thatch up.

Besides the excellent density and ball roll you get with champion, the fact that it performs better on a push up type green vs. a USGA spec is another plus. The guys who developed Champion will tell you this and give you examples; the labs, architects (most of them), consultants, fert and chemical companies, sand suppliers, will tell you USGA is the way to go as money makes the golf world go around.

One feature interview I'd like to see someday would be with the Mike and Morris Brown, the father/son team that developed and own Champion. An eye opening snippet would be something along the lines of their grass performs best at low budget courses with non university trained turf managers. Places where they don't have the money to over do the maintenance/green’s construction and the care takers don't think they know more about the grass then the guys who have been working with it for 20 years and have planted thousands of greens all over the world.  

[Greg Tallman]

Thats interesting that they (tifeagle vs champion) don't look different as sprigs.  I've played a lot of each in SC and find the tifeagle to be much grainier.  Literally into the grain the tifeagle will take on an evergreen dark color and down grain a slate green color.  Really hard to putt I think.  The champion has always been more consistent and less grainy from my experience.  In fact, I'd put miniverde up there with champion but just behind and tifeagle far behind.

 Is my "bad" tifeagle experience possibly from poorer maintenance vs what I have seen on champion or miniverde?  For instance, at Palmetto which has very healthy miniverde a weekly verticut has kept the surfaces great and the grain down.  Not sure if that is what they do at Yeamans which has excellent champion bermuda surfaces?

Last I've seen courses in SC adding just a bit of Poa Trivialis (sp?) overseed in the winter vs painting which is really nice.  Seems to die off quicikly in the spring.

John, Sounds like a maintenance issue as you will get the color differences regardless of height of cut but can certainly take the grain out for the most part. In season our tifeagle greens don't get that brutally slow uphill yet racy downhill effect indicative of grainy greens.

[Anthony_Nysse]

  I'll take tifeagle. We have 11 acres of tifeagle-tees, approaches and greens. It's the ultradwaft that has been around the longest with the least amount of negative stories, other than maybe thatch. (That's just poor management) Lots of stories of "No Till" Champion beginning to fail and segregate. Too many contamination stories with Mini Verde to make me comfortable. Local high end course is taking their 2 year old Mini out this summer because of contamination. TPC had some serious issues with contamination.
  Champion tends to be the slowest grower of the bunch, so if you’re too aggressive or get thin on top, it can take a long time to recover. Just keep the N low (3-3.5#/year) and the topdressing high.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tony,
So no till champion segregates, but planted in a traditional method, it doesn't? Does that make sense to you? The anti-champion crowd loves to spread the segregation stories, but I’d love to see some real documentation. Usually the segregation is more about contamination, and not getting a good kill on the old grass prior to planting.

And while contamination is a real problem with any of these grasses, its important for people to understand that is not a grass problem, it’s a supplier problem. Some farms keep their fields clean, and some don't. Suppliers that want clean grass will kill off an entire field if they get any sign of contamination, others worry more about the bottom line and spot treat, but once its there, it’s hard to get rid of. Clean Mini Verde is an excellent putting surface as is Champion and Tif Eagle. Most of the negative "stories" that get spread around have a lot more to do with human error then bad grass.

And you're right, Champion is the slowest of the three. I like that, other supers that like aggressive grasses probably prefer one of the other varieties.

[Greg Tallman]

Tony,
So no till champion segregates, but planted in a traditional method, it doesn't? Does that make sense to you? The anti-champion crowd loves to spread the segregation stories, but I’d love to see some real documentation. Usually the segregation is more about contamination, and not getting a good kill on the old grass prior to planting.

And while contamination is a real problem with any of these grasses, its important for people to understand that is not a grass problem, it’s a supplier problem. Some farms keep their fields clean, and some don't. Suppliers that want clean grass will kill off an entire field if they get any sign of contamination, others worry more about the bottom line and spot treat, but once its there, it’s hard to get rid of. Clean Mini Verde is an excellent putting surface as is Champion and Tif Eagle. Most of the negative "stories" that get spread around have a lot more to do with human error then bad grass.

And you're right, Champion is the slowest of the three. I like that, other supers that like aggressive grasses probably prefer one of the other varieties.

Only real negative I have heard on Champion is it can struggle when in close proximity to the ocean.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don,

If you do interview Morris for this or anything, please ask him to define how much a bushel is, LOL.  US, Texas, Georgia bushels and the good old fashioned supplier bushel.   Frankly, most folks plant until the ground is covered and don't know wht the rate is or actually should be, depending on the unit of measurement.

[Michael Whitaker]

One feature interview I'd like to see someday would be with the Mike and Morris Brown, the father/son team that developed and own Champion. An eye opening snippet would be something along the lines of their grass performs best at low budget courses with non university trained turf managers. Places where they don't have the money to over do the maintenance/green’s construction and the care takers don't think they know more about the grass then the guys who have been working with it for 20 years and have planted thousands of greens all over the world.

It's interesting you say that, Don, because the courses in SC that have the BEST Champion greens I've seen are the "country" courses that don't have a high profile super or much money to spend. Not sure why that is, but there is a course in Powdersville, SC (Southern Oaks GC) that has consistently fabulous greens throughout the year. They were the reason a good number of the courses in our area switched to Champion... Furman University GC, for example. While all the Champion courses have good greens, no one has been able to match the success they've had at Southern Oaks, who's super operates on a very small budget.

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