News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2012, 01:17:19 PM »
I don't disagree with anything that's been said so far, in theory ... but I still wonder if deliberately sacrificing the chance to have a great hole for the first hole is the best choice if you're trying to build a great course.

When in doubt, I go back and analyze.  So, I went to the list of the top 50 courses in the world, and I was surprised to find that EIGHT of them start with a par-5.  In addition to Sand Hills, Riviera, and Olympic [already mentioned], here are the others:

Royal County Down
San Francisco Golf Club
Sunningdale (Old)
Los Angeles CC (North)
Barnbougle Dunes  :)

None of these is a very dramatic opener -- Barnbougle's is probably the hardest, but only because it plays into the prevailing wind.   But these par-5 openers didn't hold back the courses too much.  So maybe I'm wrong to dislike some of my own courses for starting with par 5's ?

Not to mention two other I think strong candidates for top 50 world; Rye's opener - a benign par 5 and St Enodoc's, a cracking par 5.  Both work though. 

My only concern is really about a easing into the game and a par 5 can do that as well as a par 4.  I think its tougher with a par 3, but for some reason I like Huntercombe's as a starter.   

I must say there is something to be said for testing a player out of the blocks as usually the guy who prepared better for the round gets the advantage, but the issue is not wanting a low index to start because its bad news for a 19th.  Then again, I have always been of the opinion  that a guy should get so many shots in a game.  Once the game goes into extra holes there should be no shots - the allocation has been used.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jackson C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2012, 01:19:31 PM »
Pat's and Greg's thoughts seem to be the right answer intellectually.  As such, I am hard pressed to criticize a great par 5, just because it came first in a routing.

However, I do get Tom's point.
When I tee off Kingsley #1, I am thinking of avoiding a big number.  This feeling is compounded with the knowledge that #2 lurks immediately beyond.  Such is the challenge.  :)  On the other hand, if you can get beyond the first two holes at par or 1 over, you set yourself up for a strong front 9 score.
"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2012, 01:21:43 PM »
I have been recently going through much the same thought process. There is so much to consider and much pertains to the lay of the land. Here is my specific example and what transpired this week. I have nine hole course in Cordaba that will open in our upcoming spring, October. The first hole is the most difficult and the first shot off the tee the most demanding shot on the entire course. The other eight set up perfect in my opinion and there was almost nothing of dirt movement in the entire eight holes. Alternative routing where easier first holes were incorporated caused the rest of the routing to suffer greatly and as a result increased dirt movement throughout and losing the natural effect which was my priority. So it depends where you put your priorities. Too make matters worst, the first landing area has a steep slope to it. We had to cut into the mountain to get additional width, create a retaining wall where we cut into the mountain and we ended up adding much more dirt in the landing area than we used for the entire rest of the eight holes. A well struck slightly off centerline drive will trickle it way down to a creek bed and complicate the second shot, an unjust penalty for a well struck drive. I have looked at the landing area from all angles and it scares me because it is the first hole and the first shot, if it was the seventh I would be ok with it. The course has three par fiveīs and two of them, can be played as alternative par fours to mix and match and create variety within the nine holes, two par fours can also be played as Par 3īs.. The holes is 600 yards form the back and can be played also as a par four of 460 but a part of the landing as a par four is blind, not good for a first hole either. At the end of the first landing area, par five is a shelf that drops down about twenty feet and the rest of the hole is at that elevation. From that point the hole is a strong first hole, par four of around 380 yards, all natural like the remaining eight holes. Good golfers that have walked the property love it but are wondering why the first is so tough and the owner has conveyed these general comments to me. So now, what we are considering is eliminating the back tees and the first two hundred and thirty yards and the filled landing area, retention wall ect and making this an easier par four starting hole. The current back tees are situated below the hotel and next to the ninth green and putting green. So we will lose the proximity of these areas and golfers will be required to walk from the ninth green or the putting greens, some 250 yards to get to the first or tenth tee. Not an ideal situation either. Conclusions, if you want to keep it natural, work with the lay of the land, perfection will hardly ever exist, something out of perfect will find it ways into the overall scheme and we will be called on it as a result.  What would you do? Obviously the owner is confused and disappointed that we spent so much money on trying to make this particular hole work and I am now considering giving back to him the entire area, for two acres of additional real estate, which he kind of likes. Anyways, I wonīt make a final decision until after opening but just in case we will proceed with the possible zoning change. So any input is welcomed. Donīt want to hijack the thread..maybe it should be a sperate thread???

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2012, 01:29:08 PM »
I actually like the par 5 as an opening hole.  It usually allows me to hit my driver off the first tee and then a utility or longer iron for my second shot and a wedge for my third.  As a result, I kind of think it is the ultimate warm-up hole because it lets you hit different clubs.  

+1
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Peter Pallotta

Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2012, 02:02:26 PM »
Tom - as per this quote ("I still wonder if deliberately sacrificing the chance to have a great hole for the first hole is the best choice if you're trying to build a great course") and Greg's post #22:

I think this is a false dichotomy. (I think the course you mentioned suggests the same). There is no relationship between a 'great course' and any one/individual "great hole". The "18 great holes" and (ala PV) "18 postcards" means nothing to me; I can't imagine what that so-called 'perfection' would look like and play like (but as the Navajos know, you've got to weave in one mistake to let the devil out).  In other words, I am convinced that no 'sacrifice' is actually required, except for the sacrifice of one's own pre-conceptions and personal preferences.

Peter


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2012, 02:12:41 PM »
Tom, if scoring is what is bothering you, I just want to add that if you are a mid-handicapper like me, the most you can card for handicap is 7. So the worst I can post is 7 on a par 5. That is helluva better than posting 7 on a par 4 or worse, a par 3. The par 5 opening hole is just fine as long as it is not followed by a par 3.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2012, 02:25:24 PM »
I used to be a member at a course that had a short par 5 opening hole and I thought it was a good way to open a course due to the amount of options that could still lead to getting on the green in regulation. This is especially the case at a members club were often they will be getting to the tee last minute without the sort of warm up we all know is recommended.

For instance you could:
- Hit a decent drive and have a go in two.
- Hit a poor drive, scramble something out to around 200 yards away and still have a chance of getting a fairway wood on the green.
- Hit a couple of safe fairway woods before your approach.
- Someone who doesnt get his driver working straight away could always hit 3 long irons or something like that.
- Hit a decent drive that doesn't quite catch a good lie, hit a mid iron as a safe lay up and still go at the green with another mid iron
etc etc...

And as I know plenty of people aren't fans of par 5s, why not take the opportunity to incorporate one as the first due to its various unique elements as discussed.

Of course, such variety can mean a slow start which isn't ideal, but if the land fits why not?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2012, 02:40:59 PM »
This notion of ruining someone's day is odd. Are we so sensitive that we need to have our egos stroked as well? My best rounds always start out with a poorly played opener. The thrill of recovering from a poorly played hole, shouldn't be the concern of the gca, it should identify the character of the person  who is over coming it.

Tom, When did you start to worry more about stroke play ? I inferred relatively recently.

Randy, Your dilema sounds interesting. It sounds almost like Mike Devrie's opener in Marquette at Greywalls. In that, it's a wild roller-coaster of a hole to start the day. Mike successfully used that rugged opener, to turn what's become a rote routing standard, upside down, by finishing with the handshake. For your course, based on my limited understanding, I'd suggest a sign that reads along the lines of Bethpage Black's warning. Except yours is just for the first hole. Let the ego of the player decide. Just be sure they have 15 min tee time intervals  ::)

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2012, 02:53:25 PM »
I have no problem with it at all. I can hit a bad drive and still make a five most of the time.


American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2012, 02:59:18 PM »
I think that any 500-525 opening hole is poor routing.  All it does is throw most 4-balls out of rhythm and start the negative accordion flow of "hurry up and wait" which plagues most golf courses, regardless of their starting hole.

One of the best opening par-5 holes I know is at Spyglass.  It has it all--mystery, a generous landing area for the drive, a turbo boost at 200 to the left which will greatly reward the well struck opening drive, a fantastic view out of the forest and onto the dunes once you get over the hill, a narrowing bottle-neck that allows for a well-defined risk/reward layup, a great green sitting in the dunes which seems reachable in two off a good drive but isn't--all in all a microcosm of the course, now that I think about it.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2012, 03:05:51 PM »
One caveat- if the course has no driving range then I'd lean more towards the easy opener.  I assume that's not the case at Dismal.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2012, 03:18:17 PM »
Jud:

I pretty much never go to the driving range, anyway, which is one reason I've always felt like a forgiving opening tee shot is a good idea.


All:

I feel like I am not doing a good job of explaining my biases, and obviously I'm exploring here a bit, so don't take everything I say as an absolute.

I surely would not pass up the chance to build a great par-5 if there was a great one sitting there for my first hole.  Design dilemmas are usually about what to do if there isn't a great hole sitting there.  For par-5's, that usually means adding more bunkers and creating different lines of play, but that's just the sort of thing I would tend to refrain from on the opening hole.


Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2012, 03:30:39 PM »
Diamante begins with a par 5 and, in my view, it is a hole where there seemed to be a conscious effort to hold back a bit. It is one of th weaker holes on the course IMO and detracts from it a bit if I am being brutally honest as the site could yield a bit better hole.

Paul can comment/explain more as to the thought process and siting of teh green and strategy on the hole.

Certainly nothing wrong with the hole and being the opener it does create a WTH moment that it miight were the same hole later in the round. Seems like it is exactly what you are describing - "a perfectly fine hole that gets you from clubhouse to the 2nd tee where the golf course really begins"... I would forego the hallway and have the doors open directly to the theatre.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2012, 03:51:58 PM »
Jud:

I pretty much never go to the driving range, anyway, which is one reason I've always felt like a forgiving opening tee shot is a good idea.


All:

I feel like I am not doing a good job of explaining my biases, and obviously I'm exploring here a bit, so don't take everything I say as an absolute.

I surely would not pass up the chance to build a great par-5 if there was a great one sitting there for my first hole.  Design dilemmas are usually about what to do if there isn't a great hole sitting there.  For par-5's, that usually means adding more bunkers and creating different lines of play, but that's just the sort of thing I would tend to refrain from on the opening hole.


What about sacarafing a weak par five opening hole to preserve eight excellent following holes??

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2012, 04:49:23 PM »
Jud:

I pretty much never go to the driving range, anyway, which is one reason I've always felt like a forgiving opening tee shot is a good idea.


All:

I feel like I am not doing a good job of explaining my biases, and obviously I'm exploring here a bit, so don't take everything I say as an absolute.

I surely would not pass up the chance to build a great par-5 if there was a great one sitting there for my first hole.  Design dilemmas are usually about what to do if there isn't a great hole sitting there.  For par-5's, that usually means adding more bunkers and creating different lines of play, but that's just the sort of thing I would tend to refrain from on the opening hole.


What about sacarafing a weak par five opening hole to preserve eight excellent following holes??

Randy:

Sometimes you have to make exactly that trade-off.

However, the hole you described above doesn't sound weak at all, it sounds too difficult.  I think, in your shoes, I would have gone for the par-4, unless it made par = 34 and the client wouldn't go for that.  I would only choose to fight the ground for the par-5 if I was sure I was eventually going to win.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2012, 05:27:09 PM »
Mr. Doak,
Your right it not a weak hole, just a difficult hole and what makes it more complex, is the green and the surroundings are one of the best on the course for my liking anyways and the second shot is also strong. I think only one of the stronger approach shots is on the final hole, as it should be. So how i see it now,  is the first punch has the power to knock out the best but if you survive, your in for a hell of a ride, is that so bad? Everything has it cost and personally I would prefer that then lose basic design concepts of having one and ten tee near the putting and hotel ect. But the recent judgements have made me doubtful and take a second look. And when it gets this complex, the answers donīt jump out, black and white. Anyways I will post the routing in the near future and hole by hole description with photos. Just waiting for the sheep fescue to mature and grow to give some needed framing.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2012, 06:11:41 PM »
Tom Doak,

Some interesting thoughts RE: Par 5s but I think it is slightly wrong to describe Par 5s as a group.  Whilst they don't have the variety of par 4s, they do still have some variety.  

For example, I was none too fussed about the Par 5 opener at Barnbougle when it opened but think that the first at St Andrews Beach is almost the perfect opening hole (other than the blindness of the approach holding up the field).  

My thoughts would be that a good opening tee shot should allow the player to swing reasonably freely with their driver to ease their way into the round.  I can handle an opening bogey but really don't want one bad swing to lead to triple bogey.There should obviously be some reward for a good drive but a bad drive should not be unduly punished.  On an opening hole par 5, these characteristics should hold equally true for the second shot, IMO.  

At Barnbougle the opening teeshot had a nice wide fairway however, the second shot landing area was quite small and restrictive (although the light rough has been widened over time.)  To go for the green or take on the second shot bunker (if in range) was a big risk of a lost ball for a player not warmed up and often the second shot was a defensive layup.  

At St Andrews Beach however, the second shot landing area was a minimum of 65 yards wide.  There was always a feeling that the player could swing freely on this shot without getting into too much trouble.  Two long straight shots are well rewarded with a view of the green with the third shot, and this is a big help if one wants to make par or birdie.  

To me it is just a perfectly balanced openning hole in that it required good shots to play it well but average warm up shots still give a good chance of keeping the ball in play and making par or bogey.  The player always feels he can swing freely on his opening two shots  - two good shots equals a 40-80 yard pitch with a view of the green.  Two average shots equals a blind 6 iron-9 iron approach.  

In the same vein, whilst I haven't been there, I would imagine that the eighth or second at Augusta would be far better starting holes than the 13th or 15th and I hope the reasons are obvious.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 07:32:55 PM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2012, 07:04:24 PM »
Tom,

As someone who voted for the first hole as the least interesting on the course, I can say that that is not necessarily a bad thing and it has very little to do with it being a par 5 and more to do with the fact that that course seems to be filled with great holes. I am only opposed to an opening par 5 for two specific scenerios. 1) if the course is a busy course, thus pace of play prohibits it or 2) it is followed by a par 3. I think Peter said it very well and many others share my same view that I prefer a gentle opening hole. Not so gentle that it is a waste of a hole (this is definitely not the case with 1 at Dismal), but not so challenging that one goes in expecting bogey. In this way a par 5 can be ideal. It allows the player who may not be warmed up and may have some nerves to get a drive in play. I think that #1 at Pacific does this fantastically. The one place where I think that a gentle opening 5 can actually be better than a gentle opening 4 is that it allows the player to hit driver off the bat, and to have the chance to score if the drive is hit well or to not be overly punished if that first shot comes off a bit squirelly.

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2012, 07:44:22 PM »
Most of my feelings have been expressed here. I don't hate a par 5 as an opener. I don't love it. If I had to choose, I would probably lean toward having a par 5 opener.

I grew up on a course with a par 5 opener, I was a member at two clubs that have a par 5 opener, my current club has a par 4 opener.

My feelings on a par 5 opener are probably this: It needs to be long enough so that a small percentage of players can go for the green in two. I would like to see it longer than 525 from the back tees. I think guys waiting to go for a par 5 green in two creates a poor experience out of the box for the group on the tee. I'd rather have people not have to wait on the first tee and have them potentially get irritated later.

Just as important, in my opinion, is the hole after a par 5 opener. I'd like to see it be a hole that doesn't have the potential to be a bottleneck from a pace of play perspective.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2012, 07:52:49 PM »
I don't care what the par of a hole is, no one should be allowed to start a round until the first green is clear. 

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2012, 09:37:46 PM »
Works well at both Flossmoor and Olympia Fields North. New tee box on the 1st at OFCC pushes it back in the 650 range. With the nasty fairway bunkers it is far from an easy opener.

Michael Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2012, 09:49:21 PM »
On the extreme opposite end of the "friendly handshake" opening, our course starts with the 1st and 3rd handicap holes, a par 4 that is 450/470 (white and blue tees) and then a 420/435 par 4.  On the plus side for #1, there is only one bunker on the left about 40 yards from the green, a former fairway bunker on the left at 220-230 from the tee on the left was taken out about 15 years ago.  In terms of flow of play, typically at least one person in every group has their tee shot in position to possibly reach the green, so the pace of play on 1 and 2 isn't too bad.

In the past discussions have come up about potentially making changes to #1 to convert it to a short par 5 (I think possibly our 15-20 year old "master plan" from architect Brian Huntley suggested this) but with a new expansion to our cart barn I don't think it's a possibility unless we would move the 9th green, which I don't see happening.

Most of our members simply look at 1 and 2 as an opportunity to get a head start on an excellent round if you can go 4-4.  5-5, or worse, is more the norm.

Can't say I'd be an advocate for converting our #1 to a par 5.  They would definitely have to toughen up the approach area to prevent all players from taking a crack at the green.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2012, 10:19:21 PM »
An opening par 5 is wonderful, especially if a "gentle handshake".  The 1st at the Doak Course fits this theme but the green will be a challenge, especially back right.  Nice to have a birdie chance with a tough second and third lurking.


Joe Leenheer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2012, 10:37:09 PM »
I don't believe there is an "easy opening hole" in golf.  I've watched far to many really really good players step up on the first tee and make terrible swings.  The general difficulty of a 1st hole is that it's the first hole.  It has nothing to do with yards....just the inches between your ears.

Mr. Doak...you mentioned in an early post about liking the idea of a Par 5 as a 19 hole in matches that need extra holes....my eyebrow raised only because par 5's are usually the holes where strokes fall...and nobody like to loose in extra holes to a net anything.

Of my very shallow list of courses (150 or so), I can only come up with 3 that I can remember having par 5 openers....and I like all three courses.











Never let the quality of your game determine the quality of your time spent playing it.

noonan

Re: Par Fives as Opening Holes
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2012, 10:47:58 PM »
We have a gentle par 5 opener at our club

The only thing that is difficult is the green

I like a par 5 opener!