[Jason Thurman]

From another thread, lost in some jibberish about carts and distance aids, an interesting assertion was made that golfers did not care about distance in the early days of the game.

I'm wondering about the evolution of distance measurements in golf. How was distance measured in the early days of the game? When did yardage become the standard unit of measurement? When did players begin seeking to know yardage for approach shots?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jason

'From another thread, lost in some jibberish about carts and distance aids'  Clearly trust is now a very serious issue, so as you don't trust me I wish you well in your search.

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:

Jack Nicklaus was the player who popularized the idea of knowing the exact yardage to the hole for his approach shots.

He got the idea from another golfer he had encountered in amateur competitions, Dr. Gene Andrews.  He saw that Andrews had a detailed yardage book, and thought he (Jack) should have information as good as anyone else's.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Thanks Tom

But Ops Jason, checking through the history of the 19th and early part of the 20th Century I regret to inform you that I have not come across a Jack Nicklaus or for that matter a certain doctor called Dr. Gene Andrews within in this period. Their names seem to appear to the middle end of the 20th Century.

Just think what it would be like to play golf without outside aids or the worry of getting a distance fix every few minutes. That must be one hell of a way of playing golf, free uncluttered mind just you and the course ahead of you. Ops again, many do play the game that way, those uncontaminated with the distance virus.

Oh well,  you learn something new nearly every day.   

[Mark Saltzman]

Playing an intact golden era golf course without or with limited distance aids, especially of it is the first time you play a course, is a wonderful experience.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Just think what it would be like to play golf without outside aids or the worry of getting a distance fix every few minutes. That must be one hell of a way of playing golf, free uncluttered mind just you and the course ahead of you. Ops again, many do play the game that way, those uncontaminated with the distance virus.

Many of us play that way on our home course as after a while you get to know exactly how far you have and don't have to look for any markers, even though white plates in the middle of the fairway are hard to miss,you don't really need them.  Or is having that knowledge from past episodes of peeking a sprinkler heads a violation of the spirit as well?

[William_G]

You know Graeme Mcdowell alluded to the positiveity he feels from the folks in the US as opposed to how one can get beaten up back home with negativity.

I love Ireland and GB, but you know golf is a game of milllimeters, inches, feet, yards and meters.

To know that info when playing the game helps your game and your life.

If golf is an analogy of life, then some may prefer less info and be done with it.

However, golf can be more enjoyable when you avoid those bunkers despite the headwind.

As in life, it's better to be forewarned whether you are Morris or a Nicklaus, as justice is blind.

[David Harshbarger]

Just think what it would be like to play golf without outside aids or the worry of getting a distance fix every few minutes. That must be one hell of a way of playing golf, free uncluttered mind just you and the course ahead of you. Ops again, many do play the game that way, those uncontaminated with the distance virus.

Many of us play that way on our home course as after a while you get to know exactly how far you have and don't have to look for any markers, even though white plates in the middle of the fairway are hard to miss,you don't really need them.  Or is having that knowledge from past episodes of peeking a sprinkler heads a violation of the spirit as well?

The distance genii is out of bottle as soon as it shows up on the tee marker, the yardage markers, and then to your memory.  Stuffing it back in the bottle may not be possible.  

Would you play a course where the yardages aren't known or disclosed?  Would a course present itself that way?

Hmm, maybe they would.  With the proliferation of personal distance aids, courses could excuse themselves from providing that info themselves, at least interior distances.  Something has to be on the card, right?

How do they do it at Bandon and Ballyneal?

[Mark Saltzman]

David, I think knowing the hole yardage doesn't change the experience.

[David Harshbarger]

Mark, I was thinking that too, then thought about Par 3's.

[Jason Thurman]

Just think what it would be like to play golf without outside aids or the worry of getting a distance fix every few minutes. That must be one hell of a way of playing golf, free uncluttered mind just you and the course ahead of you. Ops again, many do play the game that way, those uncontaminated with the distance virus.

Many of us play that way on our home course as after a while you get to know exactly how far you have and don't have to look for any markers, even though white plates in the middle of the fairway are hard to miss,you don't really need them.  Or is having that knowledge from past episodes of peeking a sprinkler heads a violation of the spirit as well?

Wayne, this is an interesting point and I think it drives at the heart of the topic. It has been claimed by some that no one cared about distances before 1900, if not later. I find that hard to believe, because making a good stroke is ultimately a matter of getting distance and direction correct. I doubt that the "length" portion of the equation was ever ignored by competitive players, as some have claimed.

What I do believe could be correct, though, is that prior to 1900 or so most people played almost all of their golf at one local course due to transportation limitations. After a few times around the course, they no doubt would have known how far they needed to hit most approaches and what club would do the job. Therefore, we can hypothesize that standardizing distance didn't matter much until people started regularly playing at more than one course.

I would guess that yardages started getting indicated by stakes or some other means around the early to mid 20th century as golfers began to play many courses in a lifetime, but that's just my guess and I'd love to know if someone has real knowledge of the history.

[David_Tepper]

"Jack Nicklaus was the player who popularized the idea of knowing the exact yardage to the hole for his approach shots."

Let me get this straight....Nicklaus employs a technique to improve his knowledge of and his performance on a course golf, goes on to become one of the greatest, if not the greatest, golfers of all time and that is some how a bad thing?

Next, I guess we will start reading threads here about how Ben Hogan ruined golf because he thought it might be a good idea to practice a little bit.  

[Mark Saltzman]

Hmmm Dave H, good point.

For the record, I play 99% of my golf WITH distance aids, but playing without them is a very different and very fun experience. I believe I get a better understanding of a classic era golf course playing without aids than with them.

[Peter Pallotta]

At what point did even the best of golfers start to believe that they had the ability (and the equipment) to need and make the best use of very specific yardages? It could well have started with Mr. Nicklaus.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

"Jack Nicklaus was the player who popularized the idea of knowing the exact yardage to the hole for his approach shots."

Let me get this straight....Nicklaus employs a technique to improve his knowledge of and his performance on a course golf, goes on to become one of the greatest, if not the greatest, golfers of all time and that is some how a bad thing?

Next, I guess we will start reading threads here about how Ben Hogan ruined golf because he thought it might be a good idea to practice a little bit.  

David:

Well, Hogan [to use your example] and Bobby Jones didn't use precise yardages to play by.  They determined from practice rounds where they would be approaching from and how much club it took to get home from there, but knowing the distance TO THE YARD was not necessary for them.

[Tom_Doak]

Would you play a course where the yardages aren't known or disclosed?  Would a course present itself that way?

Hmm, maybe they would.  With the proliferation of personal distance aids, courses could excuse themselves from providing that info themselves, at least interior distances.  Something has to be on the card, right?

How do they do it at Bandon and Ballyneal?

David:

I've worked on a lot of projects where it was debated whether or not to provide yardages from the fairways.

Ballyneal doesn't have yardages, but they do have numbers on the sprinkler heads so that the caddies can tell you the yardages.  Bandon just went ahead and put the yardages out there, so the players could start doing their own math.  Barnbougle didn't have yardages, at first [nor rakes in the bunkers!], but I can't remember if they have capitulated since.  Askernish doesn't have yardages, but I think they have a Strokesaver.

All in all, it's very difficult to present a course with no yardage information in this day and age.  Many modern golfers are uncomfortable without them, so they demand the info; and of course anybody who is out there trying to shoot their lowest score possible wants as much information as they are legally allowed. 

It's a shame that more golfers don't learn to play by feel, as some of us did, but I don't know if anyone does it that way anymore.

[David Harshbarger]

A bunch of thoughts.....

1.  For better players, the impact of taking away yardages is probably more severe.
2.  Distance as a mechanism for calibrating one's game is extremely powerful.  
3.  Distance is a pervasive component of the language of golf.  It's also pervasive in the inner monologue of the golfer.  If you strip that away, or at least take the half of the equation about how far you need to put the ball, it creates a mental tension that can be exciting or enervating.
4.  Speaking of language, distance is the lingua franca of the aerial game.
5.  Not quite sure quite how much distance figures into the ground game, but it is far from the dominant construct it is for the aerial game.
6.  Interesting points about distance and golden age courses.  By contrast, see Gut Larchenhof.  Every driving zone is visible.  No good shot is punished.  I wonder how many par 3's have a cross bunker 30 yards in front of the green?
7.  Perception tricks are fun.  Does anyone really like the guy who explains the magic trick?

Dave

[Dan Herrmann]

I guess that we should stay away from the topic of barber poles, huh? 

[David Harshbarger]

Would you play a course where the yardages aren't known or disclosed?  Would a course present itself that way?

Hmm, maybe they would.  With the proliferation of personal distance aids, courses could excuse themselves from providing that info themselves, at least interior distances.  Something has to be on the card, right?

How do they do it at Bandon and Ballyneal?

David:

I've worked on a lot of projects where it was debated whether or not to provide yardages from the fairways.

Ballyneal doesn't have yardages, but they do have numbers on the sprinkler heads so that the caddies can tell you the yardages.  Bandon just went ahead and put the yardages out there, so the players could start doing their own math.  Barnbougle didn't have yardages, at first [nor rakes in the bunkers!], but I can't remember if they have capitulated since.  Askernish doesn't have yardages, but I think they have a Strokesaver.

All in all, it's very difficult to present a course with no yardage information in this day and age.  Many modern golfers are uncomfortable without them, so they demand the info; and of course anybody who is out there trying to shoot their lowest score possible wants as much information as they are legally allowed. 

It's a shame that more golfers don't learn to play by feel, as some of us did, but I don't know if anyone does it that way anymore.

Tom,

Two questions

1.  What were the pro and con arguments on internal yardage markers?
2.  With the prevalence of personal distance aids does that change the equation?

Dave

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pre 1900 clubs did play other clubs, very often and at the weekend. Do not forget that this was a period of much leisure movement in people using the local steamers to get to islands and golf courses around Scotland and the Isles. One example being Islay which had a few good courses one survived well as it was closest to the steamer port. i.e. Machrie were as Old Tom’s course was some 6-10 miles further on and closed around WW1. I have many reports of matches and  the playing at  other courses. 

Why do we close our mind to the past, why do we always underestimate the abilities of our forefathers. Anyway this play at other clubs and attracting the weekend visitor survived upto the beginning of WW1 circa 1914.

The game of golf played pre yardage/distance was far more enjoyable while offering the
Golfer the freedom to concentrate on more important issues like understanding the GCA and his
Game. Golfers back then I believe knew more about the game and design than we do today because
they concentrated on the important items and did not mess about with yardage.

To believe otherwise just shows a weakness in our knowledge and our game.

[Adam Clayman]

Behr's Sport V. Game warnings are germane.

Knowing the exact yardage is the booby prize.

 Playing, by figuring out the effective yardage, is at the heart of the sport. No greater satisfaction exists, that I know of, when the wind and ground conditions, are combined, which makes that calculation, a feel proposition.

[Garland Bayley]

... It has been claimed by some that no one cared about distances before 1900, if not later. I find that hard to believe, because making a good stroke is ultimately a matter of getting distance and direction correct. I doubt that the "length" portion of the equation was ever ignored by competitive players, as some have claimed.
...

Jason,

I think your skepticism is simply rooted in your experience of always having the distances available to you. If you would make the effort to play without distances aids, you might find that after a while you will find yourself making quite accurate estimates without having yardages available. Heck, if you are a handicap over 20, you have lots of such opportunities presented by having to approach the hole from adjacent fairways, roads, orchards, etc.

[Jason Thurman]

Garland, I fully understand playing by feel. I have no doubt that in 1885, players didn't say "I think we're about 173 out, but it could be 175." However, it's obvious some attention was paid to distance, as players carried several clubs designed to hit the ball different distances and with varying trajectories.

I'm not skeptical that players relied more on feel and didn't require specific yardages. On a familiar course, guessing yardage is pretty easy. But how did the competitive players of the late 19th and early 20th century get their games to travel? Did they simply show up at the Open Championship and play by feel? Did they play the course in advance to get a better understanding of how to approach certain holes? It sounds like that's what Bobby Jones did, but what about his predecessors?

When did listing the yardage of a hole on the tee or scorecard become standard? And when did players begin seeking yardages for approach shots? I'm interested in the evolution of distance moving from a "feel" to a number, and how that evolution happened.

[Garland Bayley]

It would not surprise me if the players of 1885 just showed up at new courses and played by feel. Michael Jordan didn't use a tape measure to help him sink his jump shots. (How Harvey Pennick helped Davis Love III with his lag putting.)

[Doug Siebert]

The players 100 years ago may not have had yardages, but they did have distances on the courses they played often.  Most of us have certain areas we tend to drive it on courses we play often.  Even if I didn't know something like "back edge of this bunker is 177 yards to the green" I'd probably have figured out long ago that it's a 7 iron and remembered it.  If I drove way offline I'd just have to base my guess of the club to use on knowing that spot was a 7 iron and adjusting it for my location (plus wind, etc.)  This is essentially what I do now anyway, since I don't carry a rangefinder and tend to drive in areas far from marked sprinkler heads much more often than is advisable.

Being able to eyeball distances is a useful skill, and indeed that is what players on an unfamiliar course would have to do 100 years ago.  Except THEY ALL HAD CADDIES!  Those caddies couldn't tell you "you're 125 yards away", but if they were good caddies and you made a consistent swing, they'd be able to hand you a mashie niblick or whatever.

Giving players access to yardages was a necessary and inevitable development as caddies left the game and players had to club themselves.

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