[ward peyronnin]

I just turned on The Senior PGA and this Nicklaus design looks kind of interesting . And then I read Fred Funk and others pissing and moaning about the severity of the greens

Kind of differnt for a Jack course. Who can comment?

Is it good as good as my very initial first tv impression? Only been open two years and has a senior major.

[PThomas]

Hi Ward...pretty difficult golf course all the way around , including the greens...and the course consists of parcels of land so there are some REALLY LONG ditances between some of the greens and tees...really must take a cart

I posted pictures on a thread awhile ago so they should come up via the Search function

[Matthew Sander]

Ward,

I have not played Harbor Shores, but I was going to report what I've heard. Similar to what Paul said, I've heard there are some really good holes, but the routing is awfully disjointed due to the nature of the site.

Regarding the greens, the complaints sound very similar to the bellyaching we heard after the players first saw Jack's course at Dove Mountain, which they in turn softened somewhat. I think the players still complain about the Dove Mtn greens.

I only saw about 20 minutes of the coverage this evening, but the announcers did make it a point to point out that the greens were slower than what the players are accustomed to, because of the slopes. That is what really frustrates the pros, not just the contours, but the slow speed, which is necessary.

[Howard Riefs]

"They could be the most severe or worst greens I've ever seen in my life," said Bernard Langer.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2012/05/greens-at-nicklaus-senior-pga-course-drawing-sharp-criticism.html

I'm sure he's already looking forward to returning in a couple years for the 2014 Senior PGA Championship.

[PThomas]

"They could be the most severe or worst greens I've ever seen in my life," said Bernard Langer.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2012/05/greens-at-nicklaus-senior-pga-course-drawing-sharp-criticism.html

I'm sure he's already looking forward to returning in a couple years for the 2014 Senior PGA Championship.

they might cause his yips to come back!

[ward peyronnin]

Oftentimes when I took good players to Lost Dunes they complained of unfair greens but myself and other regular players learned to enjoy the challenge.

I wonder if Harbor Shores greens are another remnant of the Nicklaus team's working with Mr. Doak at Sebonick? Have they adopted this feature as a more regular template?

[Matthew Essig]

The holes almost come in trios in the area they are in. After every three holes, it seems like you must cross under a road, or over the river or a different road.

The 7th and 8th holes are beautiful, tucked in the dunes. The entire course is beautiful. Check out the PGA website to check out a few pictures of the course.

I hate it when the pros whining about Nicklaus greens. They are ridiculous!!!! Every time the PGA tour players go to Dove Mountain, all we hear is them complaining about the greens. Now we have this course. They need to suck it up and play the course. I actually enjoy playing severe greens, too,  because it makes for interesting shelves and valleys to put the pins, plus it makes approach shots and putting so important.

[Anthony_Nysse]

The greens are stupid. Mark my words, they will be worked on prior to the 2014 Sr PGA returning. The golf course is very good, but get out a D5 Cat and bulldoze those greens.

[JC Jones]

Wild greens are only ok if your name is Doak, Coore or Hanse.  Otherwise, they suck.

To me, wild greens and carts is a perfect combination.  Hopefully I'll see it thIs summer.

[Andy Troeger]

Given what they had to work with (a bunch of parcels of land, as mentioned previously), I think Team Nicklaus did about as well with the site as could reasonably be expected. The course is difficult, with a lot of different kinds of hazards. I think in one article that even Nicklaus admitted its disjointed because of that.

The problem the pros have with the greens is that the little sections are so small that even for them its almost impossible to get the ball to the correct level on longer approaches. Putting will likely be far more defensive than normal, and long putts will really test their lag skills. I can see how the greens are fun to putt in friendly matches/games, but I can also see how I might not love them so much if I was playing a stroke play major tournament there. Many of them would complain about Doak's greens too most likely.

While I did not get to play or see Sebonack on my recent trip to Long Island, the reaction from those we spoke with was more varied than I perhaps expected. Interestingly though, EVERY person we talked to that did not care for the course (I can think of 4-5 conversations, with others who did love it) had the same general reason--the greens had too much contour and were too hard. So perhaps this is just a reminder that while most GCAers love significant green contours, there are other groups that do not.

[George Freeman]

The greens are stupid. Mark my words, they will be worked on prior to the 2014 Sr PGA returning. The golf course is very good, but get out a D5 Cat and bulldoze those greens.

That green looks pretty damn cool to me!

[Jud_T]

Let's see....a round here or 3 at the Mines (5 walking) with money left over for a couple pints at Founders....thank god I don't have as much money as I used to....

[PCCraig]

I think I like Harbor Shores more than most people on here and who I know that's played it. Yes, the greens are really severe. But to its defense almost all of the holes are WIDE open off the tee and for the most part the golf course is short. I think it tips out at ~6850 and the next set of tees is around ~6200. I'm not the longest guy off the tee by any means, but when I played it I had a lot of wedge/short iron approaches. With a wedge in your hand I don't think a lot of the shots are that hard, and with flat greens the place would be really easy. Yes, the course is annoying to walk (I tried, but for the sake of the rest of the group's pace I hopped on a cart for some of the longer walks), but considering what they had to work with it's probably as good of a routing as you could come up with.

My main knock with the course and with the greens is that while they are severe and undulating, the slopes really don't have any rhyme or reason to them. Meaning, other than trying to give yourself a good angle here or there to a pin, you're not trying to use the slopes to get close to pins. You end up trying to just get your ball into the right "pocket." Actually, once you're within about a 6-7ft circle around a pin, almost all the putts are flat....it's really only lag putts that have significant break.

[George Freeman]

I need to get over there and see the course before they tear up the greens (due to the players' reactions this week).  As others have stated, I highly doubt the greens will go unchanged between now and the next Senior PGA.  And they've only played one round!

[Bill Seitz]

I need to get over there and see the course before they tear up the greens (due to the players' reactions this week).  As others have stated, I highly doubt the greens will go unchanged between now and the next Senior PGA.  And they've only played one round!

Same here.  I haven't been over to see it yet.  I'd like to play it at least once.

[Howard Riefs]

I need to get over there and see the course before they tear up the greens (due to the players' reactions this week).  As others have stated, I highly doubt the greens will go unchanged between now and the next Senior PGA.  And they've only played one round!

Same here.  I haven't been over to see it yet.  I'd like to play it at least once.

Same here. Sounds like a good summer/fall outing. Too bad a friend just left his job at Whirlpool...

[George Freeman]

I need to get over there and see the course before they tear up the greens (due to the players' reactions this week).  As others have stated, I highly doubt the greens will go unchanged between now and the next Senior PGA.  And they've only played one round!

Same here.  I haven't been over to see it yet.  I'd like to play it at least once.

Same here. Sounds like a good summer/fall outing. Too bad a friend just left his job at Whirlpool...

Road trip

[Jud_T]

IMO you'd have to make a weekend of it and get a couple other interesting courses in the mix (Lost Dunes anyone?).  I'm braving traffic this afternoon and heading through Benton Harbor.  The thought of humping that drive just to play this course gives me pause.

[Matthew Petersen]

Oftentimes when I took good players to Lost Dunes they complained of unfair greens but myself and other regular players learned to enjoy the challenge.

I wonder if Harbor Shores greens are another remnant of the Nicklaus team's working with Mr. Doak at Sebonick? Have they adopted this feature as a more regular template?

Not sure if it's that or just that Nicklaus has seemed to come to the conclusion at this point in his design career that the best (only?) way to really defend par against great players is at the green.

Dove Mtn and this course were, I believe, both built with the likelihood of professional events in mind. I think that may be the real impetus.

[Sam Morrow]

If C&C, Doak, Hanse, or someone like that did the course wouldn't the greens be praised?

[Matthew Petersen]

If C&C, Doak, Hanse, or someone like that did the course wouldn't the greens be praised?

I don't think the pros care who does the greens.

[Sam Morrow]

If C&C, Doak, Hanse, or someone like that did the course wouldn't the greens be praised?

I don't think the pros care who does the greens.

But members of this site do.

[Matthew Petersen]

If C&C, Doak, Hanse, or someone like that did the course wouldn't the greens be praised?

I don't think the pros care who does the greens.

But members of this site do.

I agree, but I have only seen a select few people here complaining about the greens. Most of the reviews I've read have been overall positive on that count. (Same goes for Dove Mtn, which i have played. i love those greens. Granted, I'm not playing them at the speeds or to the hole locations the pros are.)

It's the pros who are whining.

[Sam Morrow]

If C&C, Doak, Hanse, or someone like that did the course wouldn't the greens be praised?

I don't think the pros care who does the greens.

But members of this site do.

I agree, but I have only seen a select few people here complaining about the greens. Most of the reviews I've read have been overall positive on that count. (Same goes for Dove Mtn, which i have played. i love those greens. Granted, I'm not playing them at the speeds or to the hole locations the pros are.)

It's the pros who are whining.

I never played Dove Mountain but watching the event really thought the greens were cool, especially in match play. As for pro whining that's always going to happen. If the sun comes up or there is a 5mph wind someone will complain.

[JC Jones]

I need to get over there and see the course before they tear up the greens (due to the players' reactions this week).  As others have stated, I highly doubt the greens will go unchanged between now and the next Senior PGA.  And they've only played one round!

For this reason, it has jumped up high on my priority list this summer when I am home.

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