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Jim Colton

Dismal River: A Case Study
« on: March 11, 2012, 10:42:42 PM »
I have been personally fascinated by Dismal River's recent transformation and newfound success. Since we have some insiders here, I think it would be interesting to chronicle in detail how and when this all took place. What went wrong with the previous iteration(s) and what changes have been made since then, either from an architectural, maintenance or management perspective? I think a lot can be learned from a thread like this, especially for other clubs that may be struggling right now.

Erin Hills would be another fascinating case study I'd like to see, if anybody has any inside information on it please feel free to start a thread. Both of these courses are worthy of in-depth, architectural study that this site seems to foster. I hope we can get some hole-by-hole illustrations of the exact changes that were made.

Edit: A couple of old photo threads (if someone can pinpoint which holes were changed the most, we can put the before and afters side-by-side).

Kyle Henderson (2007?) - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35966.0.html
Eric Smith (2010) - http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45674.0/


Links:
Article from 2005: http://journalstar.com/sports/golf-legend-nicklaus-pleased-with-progress-at-dismal-river-club/article_32ff9d45-171c-56ae-85c7-47989470ef6c.html
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 10:52:27 AM by Jim Colton »

Sam Morrow

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2012, 10:44:18 PM »
Aren't they building a Doak Course?

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2012, 10:56:45 PM »
I found this from Chris on an old thread...hopefully we can build from this.

 Several changes here have been for maintenance or drainage and/or playability in reaction to a sometime hostile environment. While a completely different personality than Sand Hills, Dismal is a blast!  I really believe you will find few better courses anywhere.

Dismal is very forgiving but unlike most "home" courses - originally the roughs were high and thick and we have thinned this so a ball can be advanced with some effort.  We keep the track fast.  


David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2012, 11:04:21 PM »
Erin Hills would be another fascinating case study I'd like to see, if anybody has any inside information on it please feel free to start a thread.

But has Erin Hills been improved, not just made more suitable for the USGA?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2012, 11:14:02 PM »
I am curious to here about all this as well.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2012, 11:24:22 PM »

Erin Hills would be another fascinating case study I'd like to see, if anybody has any inside information on it please feel free to start a thread. Both of these courses are worthy of in-depth, architectural study that this site seems to foster. I hope we can get some hole-by-hole illustrations of the exact changes that were made.

Jim:

A photo thread I did two years ago on Erin Hills that, in the thread, has links to some of the earliest GCA photo threads of EHills, including one by Dan Moore that was a very good look at the early version of the course, now much changed:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45966.0.html

In addition, here is Joe Bausch's very good thread on Wisconsin courses that includes a thorough look at Erin Hills that he posted a year ago: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48480.0.html

This thread, around the time of the US Amateur last year, includes some good debate and photos about the changes at the course, both ones done for the Amateur and those planned by the USGA:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49372.0.html

I think these provide a pretty good look at the evolution of this course. More is likely to come as the 2017 US Open approaches.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 12:42:39 AM »
Here's some of the older threads. I didn't read them all, so, if someone comes across any reference to how much Jay and I paid, I'd love a PM.

Changes at DR

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31574.0.html

Photo Tour (Ok, no photos but plenty of commentary)

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27231.0.html

Another older pic thread w/o many  pics.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25438.0.html

Some early speculations.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,13474.msg230335/topicseen.html#msg230335

The famous "Investor" thread.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27806.msg531306/topicseen.html#msg531306

Jimmy Muratt's thread from '06.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22034.0.html

And this could not be complete with out a thread from Matt Ward.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25261.0.html

The famous cluster F thread about how much dirt was moved.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25469.0.html

A pic thread with pix. from 08'

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35966.msg729778/topicseen.html#msg729778

Some talk of changes.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39728.msg833917/topicseen.html#msg833917

Chip Gaskins thread from 08'

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34844.0.html
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2012, 02:11:54 AM »
I have been personally fascinated by Dismal River's recent transformation and newfound success. Since we have some insiders here, I think it would be interesting to chronicle in detail how and when this all took place. What went wrong with the previous iteration(s) and what changes have been made since then, either from an architectural, maintenance or management perspective? I think a lot can be learned from a thread like this, especially for other clubs that may be struggling right now.

Jim

Could you please define or elaborate on what qualifies as "success" in this case. I ask this not to poke holes or stir the pot but rather as a genuine interest.

I have followed some bits and pieces about Dismal River but certainly am not in anyway even close to being fully up to speed with what has or is going on there. What I can gather from my limited following is that Nicklaus designed a course that got heavily bagged on here by many yet with a few changes it suddenly became highly regarded. With the inclusion of a new course being designed by one of the favoured architects on this site, it has reached giddying levels of praise with all manner of superlatives being employed to describe it before construction had even begun on many holes.

Like I say, I am not disputing any of the claims as I am in no position to do so, but I am genuinely interested as what the "success" is being measured as.

Grant

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 03:00:06 AM »
Grant,

Likewise having not been there, but having read about the place, and sitting about as far away geographically as you are, this seems a fair read:

Quote
What I can gather from my limited following is that Nicklaus designed a course that got heavily bagged on here by many yet with a few changes it suddenly became highly regarded.

My questions would be, re: the above:

1. How comprehensive have the changes been?

2. Regardless of the quality of the course as it stands today, does the requirement for significant change so soon after it debuted have a hangover effect on some people's perspective?

3. How highly regarded is it, aside from the obvious joy it brings the likes of Eric, Mac, John Lyon etc.? It wasn't on the new Golfweek list (if I'm not mistaken), is it truly not one of the best 100 modern courses in the USA?

Mike Sweeney

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 06:56:11 AM »
I would be interested in how the member transition was handled. I think John Kavanaugh joined at a low point for the club when they were simply talking about changes.

If I remember, they had the architect (Jack Nicklaus) write a member to John. Obviously John has been a catalyst for other members joining.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 07:56:13 AM »
Jim,
Would the golf world be a better place without Dismal River or Ballyneal? One, or both. That's my question of you. 

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 08:24:12 AM »
I have been personally fascinated by Dismal River's recent transformation and newfound success. Since we have some insiders here, I think it would be interesting to chronicle in detail how and when this all took place. What went wrong with the previous iteration(s) and what changes have been made since then, either from an architectural, maintenance or management perspective? I think a lot can be learned from a thread like this, especially for other clubs that may be struggling right now.

Jim

Could you please define or elaborate on what qualifies as "success" in this case. I ask this not to poke holes or stir the pot but rather as a genuine interest.

I have followed some bits and pieces about Dismal River but certainly am not in anyway even close to being fully up to speed with what has or is going on there. What I can gather from my limited following is that Nicklaus designed a course that got heavily bagged on here by many yet with a few changes it suddenly became highly regarded. With the inclusion of a new course being designed by one of the favoured architects on this site, it has reached giddying levels of praise with all manner of superlatives being employed to describe it before construction had even begun on many holes.

Like I say, I am not disputing any of the claims as I am in no position to do so, but I am genuinely interested as what the "success" is being measured as.

Grant

Grant,

I think the general sentiment has shifted, it seems to be successful and healthy enough to be adding a second course and they've been adding members. Heck, the speaker of the house is talking about it! If Dismal had a Klout rating, I think it would be trending up. That's why I'm calling it a success story.

Going back on some of those old threads that Adam posted, I guess I forgot that they originally had plans for two courses (I'm guessing both by Jack). Was the course ever staked out? I'm assuming it wasn't across the road. Is there room or plans for a third course down the road?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 09:20:14 AM by Jim Colton »

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 08:25:53 AM »
Jim,
Would the golf world be a better place without Dismal River or Ballyneal? One, or both. That's my question of you. 

Not trying to turn this into a DR vs Ballyneal thread; only want to focus on DR. Pose your question elsewhere and I'll be happy to answer it.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 09:04:37 AM »
Jim,
After reading what you wrote yesterday on the other site, I'm skeptical of your intentions.

I happen to think the golf world is big enough to support both courses, I believe both will survive, and I wish both success.

I hope to be playing golf in the sand hills (or chop hills) for many years and I can’t ever imagine visiting the region and not taking advantage of every playing opportunity presented to me.


Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 09:09:31 AM »
Jim,
After reading what you wrote yesterday on the other site, I'm skeptical of your intentions.

I happen to think the golf world is big enough to support both courses, I believe both will survive, and I wish both success.

I hope to be playing golf in the sand hills (or chop hills) for many years and I can’t ever imagine visiting the region and not taking advantage of every playing opportunity presented to me.



Don, feel free to be skeptical. I guess I'll have to prove you wrong. I am hopeful that we can still have a good, frank and honest discussion about architecture on golfclubatlas.com. You can always 'report to moderator' if you think this thread is falling off the rails.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 09:21:47 AM by Jim Colton »

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 09:16:02 AM »
Is Tim Kratz still around? I'd love to get an early timeline of the development process. I know there was a group on Denver guys who started the club (were they Sand Hills members?) How did they find that specific plot of land? Who were they considering for the job? How did they decide on Jack?

In one of the older threads, Tim said their instructions were as follows (I'm paraphrasing):

- Free reign of 3,000 acres, build the best 18 holes available
- Move as little dirt as possible
- Make the course walkable


Edit: found this from Tim in a post from 2005:

"Thanks to all for the words of encouragement.  Let me answer a couple of questions.  This is the first development project I’ve been involved in, and it probably will be the only one.  I don't think any of the principals in the project are going to be able to leave their day jobs.   It is a labor of love, and our goal is simply to create a great golf course and a special place and not lose money in the process.

I became involved mostly by happenstance.  All of the principals have always loved Sand Hills Golf Club and the region as a whole, but we had no intention to develop a golf course there or anywhere else.  That changed when a client of a very good friend found a small ranch for sale and asked my friend and I if we would be interested in helping him develop a course.   We toured the land, and we were hooked.  The land is similar to that at Sand Hills, but seems a bit more rugged with a little more elevation change.  Nicklaus graciously agreed to spend some time on the land with us before we even made the purchase.  He loved it, and his great enthusiasm for the project is one of the reasons we asked him to do the work.  Obviously, Jack’s name recognition also was a significant fact in our decision to use him for the project.

Jack has has stated that this is a rare piece of land, and he truly seems to relish the opportunity.  Chris Cochran, who is extremely talented and a wonderful person, is the design associate.  (I think Chris also worked on Pronghorn, but I could be wrong).  Chris really has poured his heart into the project. 

The holding basin serves several purposes.  First, it gives us emergency back-up irrigation capacity if anything ever happens to the well.  Second, it allows the water to warm a bit before we use it to irrigate, which is a bit less harsh to the grass.  Third, though you will not see if from the course, it will be aesthetically pleasing, and we will stock it for fishing.   

Surprises?  I think there will be many.  For now, let me mention the 18th green.  The natural site for the green complex for this par five was extraordinarilly long and narrow.  We figured Jack might would want to move some dirt.  No.  It's staying au naturale.  Maybe  50 yards long and 7 yards wide, in sort of a crescent moon shape, with blowout bunkers lurking on each side.   Not an easy approach -- but it sure will be fun to try.   tk"
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 10:45:52 AM by Jim Colton »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 09:19:40 AM »
Jim,
Dismal River has been discussed a lot as evidenced by the dozen threads Adam pulled up.
Just seems to me if you really cared about the architecture you would have made the drive over one afternoon. I think that’s what those do who really want to study golf architecture.

Come over in a few months when we’re out there working on the 2nd course. I’ll be happy to show you around and have all the open, honest, and frank discussion you want.


Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2012, 09:31:42 AM »
Jim,
Dismal River has been discussed a lot as evidenced by the dozen threads Adam pulled up.
Just seems to me if you really cared about the architecture you would have made the drive over one afternoon. I think that’s what those do who really want to study golf architecture.

Come over in a few months when we’re out there working on the 2nd course. I’ll be happy to show you around and have all the open, honest, and frank discussion you want.


Thanks Don. I'll keep that in mind. In the mean time, I still see the benefit of this thread. Others seem to be interested as well. Adam's links are a great starting point. It's nice having this information all in one place.

Does anyone know if Bing or Google maps has updated aerials post-course changes?

  Jim

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2012, 09:52:30 AM »
Here are some aerials of #13 with the bottom picture showing the work in progress.







From Eric's thread:


13
Par 4 379 yards


The 13th hole is undergoing a major facelift, though the work doesn't currently affect play.

Tee shot


Second shot from left side of the fairway.  Note the new green growing in down to the left.


This bunker will become the center line bunker of a massive 120 yard wide fairway. 








The fairway of the current (second?) iteration of the hole is maybe too narrow?, with the right to left cant allowing balls to run through the fairway into the left rough.  So they have seeded an additional 50 to 60 yards or so to the left and will apparently merge the two into one enormous fairway with a new green down below that is pushed back perhaps another 30 yards...



...back towards where the original green was located and only steps away from the next tee box.


The current green, a peanut shape, with the future green in the background.



Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2012, 10:00:35 AM »

Come over in a few months when we’re out there working on the 2nd course. I’ll be happy to show you around and have all the open, honest, and frank discussion you want.



Don, 70 degrees all this week. Why wait?  ;D

BTW, discussed a lot is an understatement. There's 20 pages of search results for "Dismal river".
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Anthony Gray

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 10:58:19 AM »


  What is Dismal River doing right?

  Anthony


Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2012, 11:01:45 AM »
Jim:

I have posted openly and extensively about Dismal River here on GCA.  I don't think there has been more openness here about any other course, and some people have taken exception to that and questioned good motives with poor behavior.  That's a shame.

The course was always quite good - Jack wanted to build something completely different and did so...something you couldn't get at home or at any other Nicklaus design.  It wasn't an improvement on an old and accepted theme.  Rather, like Jackson Hole for open-gate backcountry skiing, it created an almost new theme.  That must have bothered some people, especially the traditionalists.   His course is edgy in places and, like Cruden Bay, it seems to take some people a while to appreciate it.  Several greens were softened and 18 went from a quirky finish to a very fun and exceptionally solid one.  In short the course is really fun and different, and people seem to enjoy it...a lot.  

As most supers will concur, irrigation is a living thing and has to be managed.  Ours was methodically (and finally) calibrated and that helped with the roughs.  The course condition is now as it was intended and the green surfaces are among the best I have ever played.  It has a great Super and crew who give it both love and discipline.  Can you find holes or shots you don't like?  Probably.  You can find that on any course.

I also believe there is a "spiritual" aspect to Dismal River.  We don't have the pressure to protect or worry about ratings, allowing us to worry about the experience.  That begins from the moment you arrive to the time you leave.  The course is certainly a big part of the experience, and I believe it is now receiving some well earned appreciation.  I guess it allows us to refine the course or make changes without a major hissyfit.  

What really happened?  What is the secret or catalyst?  That's easy.  We understand very few people are as into architecture as here in the echo chamber.  We understand that people may seek out a highly rated course once, but most of those don't really want to be part of it. People won't fly or drive most of the day if they are forced to walk or ride, if they aren't treated well, if the course and greens aren't really good, or if they don't have fun...and they certainly won't come back again.  We go out of our way to see people have fun rather than a "take it or leave it" attitude found in many clubs.  We are irreverant, work hard, and celebrate.  We don't get in your way.  We allow 5-somes.  We do corporate outings.  We are not strict or snooty.  We never ask "who you are"...we already know, you are a golfer.  We know nothing is guaranteed.  Our members know we do our best everyday for them and their guests.  The John Boehner experience is a great example.  John played very well and was elated.  He shot 71.  He had a blast.

Disney World doesn't have the best or most roller coasters, Cedar Point does.  Disney world is just fun.

We sell fun. Customers want that, and that is the business we are in.  When they get it, they come back and that helps pay the bills.  

I can't wait for the 5th Major this year.  Alot of the guys (and wives) haven't been here before.  I bet each has a good time.  As a group, we may even caucus on a hole redesign I've been thinking about.  Beer will probably be involved.

One thing is for certain, people should probably see it before they pan it.  Any course or facility deserves at least that.



Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2012, 11:11:38 AM »
Chris,

 That's great stuff. Thanks for sharing. Obviously you deserve a lot of credit for the transformation.

 Can you highlight the other changes besides 18? I posted some aerials above on #13 -- any insight on what's going on there? What were some of the other significant changes.

 If you had to split the drivers of success into percentages (say course changes, maintenance practices, management/vibe changes), how would you divvy that up?

Anthony Gray

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2012, 11:16:35 AM »

  Very well said Chris. Fun is what it is all about. I was a member at a club where everyone felt like a visitor. It is now public. 5somes are good for golf. Bringing your own caddy can be fun as well. How many courses would allow the outings mentioned? That makes a difference. I wish Dismal River the best. I could never get into those events at Ballyneal.

 Anthony


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2012, 11:19:54 AM »
Chris, Don, I don't get the feeling that Jim is doing anything to denigrate Dismal River at all.  I think he's trying to flesh out how the golfing community's perception of Dismal River changed from somewhat negative - at least among the GCA.com crowd and to the best of my recollection - into a highly enjoyable and positive perception.   Seems like a worthwhile endeavor to me.

My recollection from several years ago is of thinking something like this:   "Sand Hills - C&C, Ballyneal - Doak, Dismal - Nicklaus..........why bother going to Dismal if Nicklaus designs courses you don't enjoy that much?"

Now a bunch of guys I respect and enjoy playing with are members and singing the praises of the place.   What has changed?

I think that's what Jim is trying to figure out.   Hopefully he won't ruffle any feathers while doing so!   ;)

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