Greens/variety

[John Bernhardt]

the discussion on punchbowl green got me to think I would love to have one on a course but not 18. Much as i would want at least one front to back and a few Tilly left ot rights and vis versa. I am curious what mix most would like.

[Lou Duran]

In my opinion, greens should fit the landscape and the course.  Holes with a short iron approach should require precision, and the greens can be wildly undulating providing the strategic challenges which Tom Paul has discussed on another thread.  These greens can be small, or large with several "greens within a green".  They can also be tilted from front to back, or away from conservative lines of play.  An inverted punchbowl could be interesting.  Greens on holes requiring middle irons can still have some movement, maybe a ridge or plateau splitting the green into two or three moderately sized areas.  On long holes, the greens should be more receptive and with more gentle slopes.  A punchbowl green with a generous entry could work here.  I agree that variety is the spice of life, and I would be very careful in developing a golf course where most of the greens are severely sloped.  I fear that the strategic challenge would be lost on the large majority, and that the pace of play would slow to a crawl.  

[John D. Bernhardt]

I agree with that assisment, especially variety is the spice of life.

[Bill_McBride]

John, the famous back-to-front greens at Oakmont all conform to the topography - each flows from a downhill fairway into a green with no bump up at the front. Two huge par 4's (#1 and #10, parallel with short par 5 #9 uphill in between), and #12 long par 5 with a difficult shot holding front of the downhill sloping green.  Great minimalist design feature!  So I guess the moral is, if you don't have that kind of topography, front to back sloping greens won't be a natural design style.

[John D. Bernhardt]

I love the greens there too bill. I never played there but walked practice rounds and 4 rounds of the 94 open.

[Mike_Cirba]

The natural greensites at Garden City should be required study for anyone even thinking of designing a golf course.  They simply flow out of the surrounding landscape, without the slightest bit of artifice.

I am left totally perplexed to wonder why a course of such elegant simplicity isn't emulated on a wider scale, especially considering that the greensites provide such variety and continual interest.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Do you think that superior drainage must exist naturally on the site in order to have those non-elevated low profile greens that blend perfectly with the land ?

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Why do you ask?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Although it's certainly desirable, I don't think it's mandatory, unless you're talking about dead-flat ground.

As in real estate, I think it all comes down to three things..."location, location, location".  I can think of numerous green sites in the Philly area, not built on natural sand (including some we saw at Inniscrone, as well as a number at Stonewall), that just flow from the fairway completely naturally without being built up on high fill pads.

Although I'm hardly an expert, it seems all you need is a slope to built into, and let the natural drainage happen in whatever manner that slope falls.  Just like Garden City, isn't it fun when a green drains to one side or the other, or even more thrilling, to the side and back?  

Any architects out there care to weigh in?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I asked because Mike wondered why these greens weren't duplicated, and I believe a partial answer may lie in the unusual soil ocnditions that exist at GCGC, which sits on the Hempstead Plain.  Someone told me that at one time it was the largest, certain type of desert area, east of the Mississippi.

In order for greens to be at fairway height you may have to have a unique topography, as does Preakness Hills, or highly unusual natural drainage conditions.

In other words, if the two basics don't exist, you may not be able to duplicate them.

Mike Cirba,

I don't believe surface runoff alone provides sufficient drainage, it has to exist in the subsoil.