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Gib_Papazian

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #75 on: December 26, 2001, 02:02:39 PM »
TE: Your post crossed in cyberspace. I think you perfectly expressed what I have been grappling with since Brains detonated his firebomb and propelled the Treehouse discussion to the next level.

It is the arbitrary nature of any presumption that the validity of art can be definitively adjudged soley by an individual -  given the inevitable subjective internal biases.

I wonder, is winemaking an art or craft? Or like golf design, both?

In every art there is criticism. We presume to stratify golf courses at GolfWeek with our rating system just as the "Wine Spectator" assigns ratings to my favorite Zinfandels. Some would say the act of winemaking is not an art, but can the same then be said about the presentation of a plate created by Wolfgang Puck?

Certainly, when one of his assistant's create this identical dish, prepared precisely to his instructions, it is not art but craft. Yet the original creator must be given his due.

Like golf, food is interactive. There is great similarity in the  arrangement of various edibles on a plate in an aesthetically  pleasing form and manipulating land forms and bunkers on a golf course.

By extention, the consumption of these foods - if done properly - provides a similar satisfaction to that of hearing a great aria or playing a beautifully conceived golf course.

Yet some foods are unappealling to a specific individual just as some are tone deaf to the beauty of an aria. Brains, the disagreement may lie in the fact that although you love the game for its challenge and strategy, it may be difficult for you to "see"  the art just as it is impossible for me to fully appreciate great opera because I do not understand the Italian language.
  
I would suggest that there are different levels of appreciation and certainly criticism. Subjectivity is at the root of this entire discussion because any search for definitive omnipotent objectivity is a fools quest.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #76 on: December 26, 2001, 02:02:48 PM »
Look, this has been a fantastic topic and a great discussion between Rich, Tom, Gib and all the others.

But for me, Gib Papazian started this thread with an interesting question and a question that is definitely very personal with all of us in his own way.

But now Gib has inserted another immensely important question in one of his posts! That was; "Would you rather have sex with Rosanne Barr or look at Nicole Kidmann naked?"

I know that's probably an intensely personal question too but I'd rather look at Nicole Kidmann in a space suit than have sex with Rosanne Barr! Sorry, Rosanne, don't take that personally, it's just me and maybe I'm weird!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #77 on: December 26, 2001, 03:46:50 PM »
Gib,

Your question was so interesting I had to go out to Cinnabar Hills and hit some golf balls and drink some cabernet to mull it over.  Changing your picture on each post just requires going into the “Profile” section of GCA and editing your personal details.  The only problem is that it changes ALL of your posts, so that Royal Kabul 1982 picture is now gone forever……..

……Oh, you asked two questions, didn’t you……

While I find it difficult to visualize Nicole Kidman going to the trouble of getting herself naked in front of me without wanting to have sex with me too, and I can’t imagine Rosanne Barr even partially naked, which in my book is a pretty much a requisite for sex, I’ll take the latter.  Just as I am on the record that there is no such thing as a bad golf course (a statement which nobody effectively refuted) I’d prefer to grin and bear my grapple inflagrante with Ms. Barr than suffer an up close but not by a longshot personal enough moment with Ms. Ex-Cruise.

BTW, Huckster, I was not using RDP as an example of a  “s h i t t y “ course but just as a workingman’s one.  After all, I haven’t played it, so how would I know anyway?  In terms of the question of playing RDP vs. walking Dornoch, I’ll still take RDP.  As a matter of fact I have played very few non-competitive rounds at Dornoch over the past 10 years and when I am there actually prefer to play friendly or solitary games on it’s 2nd course, the Struie, which is the RDP of the Highlands.  Yes, I’m sometimes a few tacos short of a combination plate……

Now I’ve got a question.  How did Tom Paul become a “DOYEN” during my absence on holiday!  How can I even dare to respond to his queries, particularly since they have become much more eloquent since he acquired his new title?

Tom, you are very right that the only part of my ramblings which are really of interest to the topics we pursue relate to how archies and others manage to create shots and holes and courses which use or create the landscapes which allow for interesting and pleasing matrices within the rules and realities of the game of golf.  As the boy said to the man who asked him why he was digging frantically into the big pile of manure, “There must be a pony in there, somewhere!”

We’ll find that pony someday, but until then I’ll retract all the heretical thoughts I have posted on this topic and heartily agree with Gib that CB McDonald is as much of an artist as my 4-year old (she’s damned good, by the way…).

So, Gib.  How does one edit one’s past posts……??????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #78 on: December 26, 2001, 04:27:15 PM »
Rich Goodale, you are indeed a backward Indian and from now on I'm going to assume that everything you say you really mean the opposite! Am I beginning to lose my reading comprehension or did you say what I think you said on the Kidmann/Barr question? The fact that you had to go out to Cinnabar Hills and hit some balls, drink some cabarnet and mull over that question is a very bad sign!

But at this point I'm quite certain that you love golf so much you were just looking for an excuse to go somewhere and wrap your hands around a golf club and slug some golf balls. Actually if you head on over to the Safeway shortly after dawn I hear they have a matrix in their parking lot that is every bit as interesting and inspiring as anything you'll find at Cypress Point!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #79 on: December 26, 2001, 06:40:28 PM »
  What came first? The music or the golf interest?  
I remember when I was younger, Creedence Clearwater Revival did it for me. I stole all my brothers records of them.  Minimalist "Lean, Clean and Bluesy" that started me on my way to music appreciation on to more complex rythms and timbres and instrumental interaction.  As I get more wrinkly and wizenheimered I seem to be going back in a circle to truer sounds. Vince Geuraldi is a perfect example. "Oh, Brother Where Art Thou?" another. Ian Anderson's "Secret Language of Birds" is progressive yet cultural. I think we see through the hype of courses and at least make an effort  to find the soul of the piece and what makes it appealing. Most here are past the Wow! of production grandeur.
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #80 on: December 26, 2001, 08:50:19 PM »
Slag,
Congrats. You have summed up 80 posts over several days and taken us back to the original question - but that is to be expected. Oregonians are nototriously pragmatic and well grounded.

Brains and TE,

If you two ever were locked into a closet (and maybe Patrick Mucci) with a bottle of Cabernet and compelled to discuss an issue until you achieved an agreement, it would look like a scene from the movie "Scanners."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #81 on: December 27, 2001, 02:32:25 AM »
Acheive an agreement? I wouldn't count on it but I'm certain I could wear them out and the chances are better than average I could get them both to sign a confession in Urdu.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2001, 07:49:15 AM »
Urdu would be insufficient.  We want blood.

Rich, gotcha re my "beloved" Rancho del Pueblo.  It was a perfect example and well, I was just giving you crap for citing it!

And selfishly back to the part of this that most interests me and is down at my level....

You do seem to have hinted at something I've said for years on sites such as this one... that is, that I could be happy playing golf on a parking lot, if the friends were good and the beer was fine... the playing field does help the experience, make no mistake about it, but doesn't necessarily define it... not for me... that's why I'll never really be a "student" of golf course architecture... I just love the playing of the game too much!

It seems to me you are of this same ilk (I love using that word).

I was just thrown off when you said you'd prefer a "stroke play competition" at RDP to walking Cypress... At a course admittedly that "basic", it would require something else to hold your interest, ie the competition, correct?  I can dig that.  Same goes for me.  I'm less competitive than you, methinks, but still, the key there isn't the competition per se but just having SOMETHING going on to keep one's interest piqued... be it competition, friends, beer, scenery, working on a part of one's game....  At the Struie, you have some damn good scenery... and nothing more need be said re RD itself... solo rounds there could be cherished indeed.

Am I getting this right?

It does fascinate me.  My apologies again for straying from the art discussion.  That seems to have run its course anyway.

BTW, I too was at Cinnabar yesterday... 3-3:45... putting, chipping... For me it was to get my mind psyched up for several more hours of toy!  Such was my lot from 6-10 last night.

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #83 on: December 27, 2001, 08:26:40 AM »
Forget about Paul, Mucci and the closet.  Just give me enough cabernet and I'll have a hell of a time just arguing with myself.

Oops, gotta go.  My 4-year old is looking at me intensely and my nose is starting to bleed........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #84 on: December 27, 2001, 11:40:41 AM »
"My 4 year old is starting to look at me intensely and my nose is starting to bleed...."

Is that before your 4 year old punched you in the nose or afterwards?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #85 on: December 27, 2001, 12:19:01 PM »
 'Scanners'  explanation...

  http://www.fast-rewind.com/index.html

  (Hannibal with a lidless blender on 'puree' speed.)

 So, if Rich ever starts torquing his eyebrows at you... flee. Or borrow one of BarnyF's aluminum foil-lined hats.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2003, 01:42:12 AM »
I'm going waaaay back to resurrect this thread because I've just thought of a complimentary subject to my friend Gib's initial connection of music, art and golf architecture.

While this is a tad esoteric and only marginally associated with the primary subject matter of this discussion group, nonetheless I am left wondering about the further connection of golf architecture to...............wine.

While I know that there are a few teetotalers out there, I also know (from personal experience) that more than a few of this august group have a deep and special understanding of the mysteries of the vine.  Specifically, we always seem to talk about, though in veiled references, of how the old-timers actually came up with some of their brilliant designs.  And the unspoken truth is that more than a few of them consumed more than iced-tea for lunch.

So, with all of that in mind, I got to wondering...........If there are any parallels between the golden age designers we all admire and certain attributes of differing varieties of wine.

Bear with me here.  For instance, a bracing and crisp, somewhat sweet and in need of long-term cellering Alsatian reisling might begin to describe whom?

Whilst a peppery, firm, tight and concentrated zinfandel with lively notes of black currant and raspberry may be a perfect description of..............whom?

On the other hand, an overwrought, flabby California chardonnay that has seen too much oak and malolactic fermentation would be describing..............whom?

I'm just curious here as to how some of the past architects (you know, the one's who can't defend themselves) would be associated with various wines.

Who was a cabernet?  Who was a merlot?  Who was a mixed bag of southern rhone grenache, syrah and carignane?  And most frightening, who was a.................white zinfandel?
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

TEPaul

Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #87 on: October 31, 2003, 07:13:37 AM »
Neal:

Wonderful questions--the type that make Golfclubatlas.com the weird and wonderful world it really is!

But you're right, your questions about the specific nature of various wines is esoteric--too esoteric for me. Unfortunately, I'm not one who either understands or appreciates these kinds of distinctions to do with the grape, or barley, wheat or whatever else the whole spectrum of alchoholic beverages emanates from---although I guess I do hope that someday I too can learn these things better.

All I'm interested in regarding the entire spectrum of alcoholic beverages when it comes to the mind expanding condition necessary to create weird and wonderful golf architecture is the EFFECT of grape, barley, wheat or whatever else can be processed into an alcoholic beverage!

You see, I happen to believe that the EFFECT of any alcoholic beverage and a good deal of it can make anyone SMART or SMARTER---always smarter, in fact, than the limiting strictures of everyday common sobriety!

Inhibitions and petty concerns, such as things that are formulaic and standardized in golf and golf course architecture are over-ridden by the effects of alcohol and the mind and body is released better to both imagine and to do weird and wonderful things.

But if there are nuances within the quality of alcoholic beverages, such as wine, to make one even smarter still, I do not know, although it would not surprise me.

The only downside I can possibly think of with the mind expanding world of alcohol and architectural creation is the morning after. That problem should be dealt with by laying off of architectural creation during the morning after and if that's not possible then a good dose of the "hair of the dog" during the morning after is the only imaginable solution!!

TEPaul

Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #88 on: October 31, 2003, 07:28:16 AM »
Neal:

I'd also have to say that it appears to be the true case that the wonderful and imaginative creations that we see and know and love to do with the architecture of the so-called "Golden" or "Gilded" age did come from the expanded minds of those sometimes eccentric and outrageous characters that used the EFFECT of alcohol liberally and well. Today's architects just don't seem to have the necessary "lack of restraint" that those wonderful fellows of old did.

So we may never again be able to expect those wonderful types of super imaginative creations but on the other hand we should probably recognize that there was a downside to it all as it might be hard to deny that despite the heights some of the old fellows soared to, the continued EFFECT of that alcohol induced imaginative state probably did kill most of them too early!

It's probably all not much more than that old "Circle of Life" and all that's within it that both giveth and taketh away!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 07:30:23 AM by TEPaul »

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #89 on: October 31, 2003, 10:28:18 AM »
Tom,

Seeing how you live in San Jose and work in Oakland, I think you need a little East Bay therapy. I suggest you go out and buy some Rancid and play it loud during your commute. It will make up for your A-Teens sins.

TimT

Jeez, well and perfectly stated, Dan.  That about sums it up.

I have a question though:  what happens when one finds onesself getting into one's kids' music?  That is, have I gone insane or mush-minded because I find myself driving along and humming the teeny-pop melodies my 6 year old daugher is living for these days?  Does this mean all overpriced CCFAD's are now gonna suddenly appeal to me?  Help!


[Upside down
bouncing off the ceiling
Inside out
stranger to this feeling
Got no clue
what I should do
Oh I go crazy
When I can't be next to you

The "A-Teens"

TH
Quote

THuckaby2

Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #90 on: October 31, 2003, 10:33:23 AM »
Tim:

What's sick is that here nearly two years after that post, if anything things are worse.  We've moved from the A*Teens to Hilary Duff.

I think I do need a Rancid CD.  Good call.   ;D

TH

Ken_Cotner

Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #91 on: October 31, 2003, 10:58:12 AM »
Huck, there is hope.  My 10 year-old just asked for some Johnny Cash to supplement her Avril Lavigne (sp?).

Ken

THuckaby2

Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #92 on: October 31, 2003, 11:05:17 AM »
Ken:

YAHOOOOOOO!
That gives me the most optomism I have felt in a long time.  My 8yr old daughter is also VERY into Avril Lavigne. In two years there is hope...  

Re Ms. Lavigne, I gotta tell ya, I got to the point that if I heard "Complicated" one more time I was gonna hurl, though.  But then it dawned on me... I gotta treat this how my Dad did with our music... sing along - LOUDLY - butchering the lyrics with horrid rhymes... That gets the song to stop most times, and if it doesn't, well, it's fun....  ;)

Funny how smart parents look 30 years after the fact.

Now as for architects being like wines... well... I'll confess and say that in each case, I just go by "I know what I like, but I don't know why."   ;D

TH

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #93 on: October 31, 2003, 11:06:27 AM »
So, with all of that in mind, I got to wondering...........If there are any parallels between the golden age designers we all admire and certain attributes of differing varieties of wine.


Hmmm ... Neal, the problem in making this comparison is that, wine, after it has been made by the wine maker, goes UNTOUCHED by anyone until it is opened by the consumer.  No "opportunity" for a greens committee or restoration expert to open a few bottles (or the aging barrel) and add there own little touch of greatness to the wine.

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #94 on: October 31, 2003, 11:28:30 AM »
Tom,

I am tiring quickly of today's whiny music replete with bogus angst.  Just last evening, I was bringing my 14 year old daughter home from dance and she sang along to a tune called "I'm in love with Stacey's mom" who, according to the song has "got it going on."

Sheesh, why can't they be like we were - perfect in every way.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

THuckaby2

Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #95 on: October 31, 2003, 11:41:10 AM »
Great stuff, Mike.

The thought has occurred to me lately how perfectly the world goes... all modern music loved by kids always tends to suck for adults....

Why is it that music just keeps getting worse and worse and worse and worse?  ;D ;D ;D

TH

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #96 on: October 31, 2003, 11:47:34 AM »
Neal, as is generally the case with newly thought of concepts on GCA, this one was fully covered some years ago...wine and its correlations to architects.  Who other than Tommy Naccarato to have started one of the all time classic subjects.  I don't know if that posting series made it to the archives, but if one of you techie geeks can resurrect it, all of Neal's questions of wine and architect roses shall be answered. ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #97 on: October 31, 2003, 12:05:35 PM »
Great stuff, Mike.

The thought has occurred to me lately how perfectly the world goes... all modern music loved by kids always tends to suck for adults....

Why is it that music just keeps getting worse and worse and worse and worse?  ;D ;D ;D

TH


Tom,

I happened to be flipping channels and stopped at a "music" program. It was a bunch of young men dressed in some strange garb that looked like discarded clothes from a Bosnian refugee camp. After a while I learned that what they were doing was called 'rap music.' The rap I got the gist of, the music part had me puzzled.

Some time later I watched a movie about Africa called "The Power of One." The first part was very good then it became rather preachy; the book was much better than the film. But to get back to the thread. The African music(with some American additions) was superb. If there is anything quite like the voices of the Bulawayo Church choir singing 'Sensena' I have yet to hear it.

THuckaby2

Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #98 on: October 31, 2003, 12:09:54 PM »
All right, that does it, screw Rancid, I have a new CD that I MUST MUST MUST have, to set my bearings right.  I'm sure the Bulawayo Church Choir must have a recording I can find....

The question is, will my daughter appreciate it?   ;D

TH




Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Music, Art and Golf Architecture
« Reply #99 on: October 31, 2003, 01:34:37 PM »
Tom,

The Cd is the sound track from the movie of the same title.

Bob

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