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Mark_Huxford

Yarra Yarra
« on: December 23, 2001, 11:12:15 AM »

Hedley Ham, a historian from Melbourne has been kind enough to send me a whole pile of photos, newspaper clippings and information on the Architect I've been studying this year Alex Russell. Headley's home course is Yarra Yarra - Russell's first design following MacKenzie's departure from Australia.

What do the Aussies on this board think of Yarra Yarra?
How does it stack up to other sandbelt courses? Tom Doak's AM book speaks very highly of the 5th and the 11th holes. What other holes are good? The course looks pretty tight from above - how good is the routing?


A look down on the course and clubhouse


MacKenzie's praise for partner Alex Russell




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Duffy

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2001, 12:55:29 PM »
Mark,

Your summation that the course is tight is correct. Jammed together would be a more correct description.

The course and the buildings are located on little over 90 acres of land.

The weakness in the design is that most of the holes run parallel to each other in a generally north-south direction. Russell probably had little choice in the matter, given the paucity of land he had to work with.

That being said, Yarra Yarra does have some attractive holes. Apart from the forementioned 5th and 11th holes, 12 and 15 are quite good as well.

The 15th, like so many par threes on the Melbourne Sand Belt, is an uphill hole, with the green maybe elevated several metres above the teeing area.

The green has two-tiers, so club selection, depending on the location of the flag, becomes doubly important. The hole can range anything from a nine iron(front pin placement) to a four iron (top back tier pin placement into a southerly wind).

The 12th is a par four, slightly dog-legged left, with the second shot to an elevated green, which like the rest, has subtle borrows and gradients. A four on this hole  requires two good shots, and probably two good putts as well.

The clubhouse is a gracious Spanish Mission style construction, and adds considerably to the charm of the course.

Yarra Yarra is generally rated amongst the top six or seven on the Sand Belt, however personally, I prefer courses such as Peninsula (South), Spring Valley and Keysborough to the constricted layout of Yarra Yarra.

Russell did lament to me in an interview in 1969 that he had beseeched the committee to purchase more land for the construction of the site, however, they were unable to come to terms with the owners of the adjoining properties, which at the time were market gardens.

If you come to Melbourne Mark, Yarra Yarra is definitely worth a visit, but in my opinion, there are far better layouts on the main sand belt, and the southern sand belt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2001, 01:30:15 PM »
Mark,

While I have never been to your great country, just looking at that mesmerzing aerial tells me in an almost certainty that YY more then likely was similar to other MacKenzie courses that are just as tight. Meaning more then likely before all of the trees, the routing of the course consisted of some shared fairways not unlike the Old Course and many other MacKenzie golf designs. (In example, Pastiempo 1-9; 6-7; 10-17. Even at Redlands, where he shared a few fairways, which of course no longer works since the growing of trees to seperate those areas. I have even seen the same feature in some of Max Behr's works here in SoCal. I don't think there is any doubt in my mind that he had did the same with Alex Russell.)

It is my belief that the Good Doctor accepted uncoming traffic as just another hazard to avoid in the game. Russell's Yarra Yarra looks to have embraced that same thinking. Only to be later changed by committee.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Mark_Huxford

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2001, 02:00:07 PM »
Mike, according to Russell's own report for the club the property they were looking at was 121 acres. This is backed up by a couple of the early newspaper clippings that state the club disposed of their original course at Rosanna for £45,000 and bought "121 acres near the Commonwealth course at Oakleigh for £18,250".

Was the block of land right of the first and second holes originally intended for the golf course and then made unavailable? The L shape property the course is on doesn't look like 121 acres to me. Paraparaumu is 121 acres and it doesn't have parralel holes and feels quite spacious in places.



You say you interviewed him. How would you describe him?



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Mark_Huxford

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2001, 02:23:00 PM »
Tommy, I don't know much about this club yet but I agree there's something in what you are saying. Here's a photo from 1948 - about twenty years after they started the course.



Like I said, from above the course looks tight but this one shows quite a bit of width to the holes. You can see the tree planting in some areas has only just started. Don't know if that was against the Architects wishes or not though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

MikeClayton

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2001, 02:31:59 PM »
Tommy
YY is really small but the old ariels show how good it origionally was before committees planted too many of the wrong trees all over it.Also the 2 holes that run east/west, 3 and 12 have been really hurt by having to plant trees and rebuild tees to protect boundaries.
13 is a terrific long 4 and the 120 yard 4th was a tiny but wonderful hole that was trashed 20 years ago when the origional difficult sloping green was flattened in a foolish quest for more pin placements - same thing happened at the 8th, a short 5. At both holes the only defence they had were Russells beautiful greens

The Sandbelt probably goes
1/ Royal Melb.W
2 RME
3 Kingston Heath
4 Victoria
5 Woodlands
6 Metropolitan
7 Commonwealth
8 YY
9 Peninsula S
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2001, 03:34:46 PM »
It's nice to know my fellow GCA brothers in the Southern Hemisphere are just as looney as I am for obsessing with the old photos!

Great stuff guys!

Judging from some of it, YY is indeed small, but being an Old Course fanatic, I can only discribe my love for places like this and the quirkiness that consumes them. Is this the game in its most natural state or what?

It is becoming glaring evident that I need to get down under, otherwise I'm not a anywhere close to be dedicated to this stuff as I think!

Paul Daley and Neil Crafter, if you both happen to be reading this, could you shoot me an email? Tanx!

tommy_n@earthlink.net

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2001, 06:39:37 PM »
Agree that whilst Yarra has many great holes, some of the character of the course is spoiled by weak holes, such as 6, 8, and 14.

I think 9 (longish Par 5) is a much under-rated hole, as is 16 (great short par 5).

Mike Clayton, I am interested in why you have Woodlands rated so high (higher than Metro and Commonwealth). Can you expand on why?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Huxford

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2001, 06:49:31 PM »

Tommy, here is the course today.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2001, 08:46:01 PM »

Shane

I rate Woodlands so high because of its perfect mix of short and long 3's ,4's and 5's.and its a fine example of how to build a sensible length difficult course. The greens are tiny,hard and when the flags are in the best spots they can only be got at from the right half - even quarter- of the fairway.I watched the state amateur final there yesterday and it was set up at its best and it demanded perfect shots and sensible thinking .

Fantastic holes include 3 and 4 the 2 short 4's, the par 3 5th,9 and 10 two long difficult 4's the par 5 15th and the hardest to hit 150 yard par 3 I've ever seen -the 17th.

Is Metro better? maybe but it doesnt have a par 3 as good as 5 or17 , a par 5 of the quality of 6 or 15 or 2 for that matter and I wonder if Metro's best two long 4's 15 and 18 are better than 9 and 10 at Woodlands. It's close though.

Commonwealth was easily better than both 20 years ago when it had 17 wonderful holes -they were forced to alter 10 because of houses in the late 60's and it was never the same but since they have altered 1,6,7,and 12 so now there are only 13 wonderful,albeit overplanted,holes.The origional would never have rated outside the top 6 in Australia but in the latest rankings out on 26 Dec its 21st (tied)

TOP 25
RMW
 Kingston Heath
R Adelaide
Metro
RME
NSW
Victoria
Australian
R Sydney
National Moonah (Norman)
Kooyonga
Lakes
Newcastle
Glades
YY
Vines
Kennedy Bay
R Canberra
Woodlands (way to low !)
Laguna Quays
Lake Karrinyup
13th Beach
Dunes
Commomwealth
Portsea






                            
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Duffy

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2001, 08:55:56 PM »
Mark,

You have asked a couple of questions, so let me deal with the easier of the two first.

The purchase in South Oakleigh involved options on parcels of land amounting to 154 acres, which I think you'll agree would have been plenty on which to build a first class golf course.

However, according to the History of the Yarra Yarra Golf Club, researched and written by golf historian Joseph Johnson, the club's committee found the market gardeners particularly hard bargainers. Secondly, the value on their existing course at Rosanna had been revised downward, which left a considerable gap between what the purchase price of the land was in South Oakleigh, and what the club would realise from the sale of its property in Rosanna.

There followed negotiations for the purchase of 121 acres, at one hundred and fifty pounds per acre, considerably above the estimate they had been forwarded of 80-100 pounds per acre.

In all 9 parcels of land was bought. Johnson states that it was 121 acres, but I believe that one parcel was withdrawn prior to purchase, leaving the club with almost the minimum on which to construct its new golf club and buildings.

In November 1969, I was told by the editor of the publishing house I was working for at the time, that an interview had been arranged with Alex Russell. I was told to treat it as a privilege, as he seldom gave interviews and was wary of people whom he didn't know.

Alas, I have to tell you it was not a very good interview, looking back all those years ago.

I found him to be taciturn, withdrawn and aloof and there were many long pauses between questions and answers, which made for an uncomfortable atmosphere.

I thought at the time that he took an instant dislike to me ( I had long hair and he was the epitome of the ultra conservative gentleman). Many of his answers were monosyllabic, and he seemed to resent the follow up questions which I had to ask following his curt responses.

Lest anyone gain the wrong impression, let me say that he was the perfect gentleman throughout the interview, courteous, quiet, and with searching eyes. He was immaculately dressed in a business suit, with a crisply laundered white shirt and a military tie (possibly a remnant from his old artillery unit).

However, some years later, I got to know one of his family members, and she mentioned to me that it was the opinion of the family that Alex had been traumatised whilst serving with the British Artillery in France during World War I.

She went on the say that in those days there were no de-briefing sessions, counselling seminars or remedial help of any sort. She said he was a completely different person from the young man who went to study at Jesus College, Cambrige, before the War.

Around 1973 I got word that Mr Russell was not very well. For several months I tried to get his family's permission for another interview, but I was told that he was too ill and that his family preferred that he be left alone.

I then took up a job overseas, and it was during this time that I heard that he had passed away, quite some time after I had departed Australia.

He never married, but he did have a very protective family.

At the time I felt he was a shy and lonely man, (the aloofness being a cover for his shyness), but after talking to his family member, I'm more inclined to agree with her viewpoint regarding his traumatisation resulting from his service in WWI.

Interestingly Mark, one of your countrymen, Terry McLean, a sports writer for the Auckland Herald, told me many years ago, that Paraparaumu was too small. He said that the committee sometime in the 1950s had been presented with the opportunity to buy additional adjoining land, but decided against the purchase.

Terry said this was typical of New Zealand golf clubs. He had a strong point of veiw that 99 per cent of golf clubs in his native land had been built on the proverbial shoe string. He used to say that NZ had more golf courses per head of population than anywhere else in the world, but only about six of them were any good.

Is he still alive Mark? I haven't heard from him for years.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2001, 09:20:32 PM »
Mike Duffy:

Very nice to hear from you again.  Gradually we Americans are beginning to realize what we are missing.....Paul Daley's recent effort has sure seen to that.

Hope we'll hear from you more often.  We can always enjoy more on Australia.

Happy Holidays.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2001, 07:51:04 AM »
Mark, You should be careful. Mike Duffy will tell you, I might start having you trapsing all around Australia and New Zealand getting me information!:)

(Mike can add something in here about how I MADE him go out of his way to play Titarangi a few years back.)

Mike, War is Hell. Especially when it takes away the heart and soul of great men like Russell.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Duffy

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2001, 02:28:52 PM »
Yes Tommy, how well I remember that trip in 1997. I thought at the time, here I am collecting information for a guy that I've never met and only got to know through exchanged messages on what was then the glorious and not-to-be-forgotten days of Golf Web when we had Dan King trying to get all of us to behave ourselves after accepting the daily baits from the notorious "Torosay". Then Mothman would weight in after a heavy session on the Anchors in Singapore, and we would all start squabbling again. Ah, memories!

In fact I'm going over to NZ after Easter, intending to play Kauri Cliffs which I have heard so much about, Gulf Harbour, Formosa,Titirangi and a club that has me fascinated, located in the Auckland region, that now claims that some of the original holes were designed by Alister Mackenzie. I'm also going to Wellington so I might get a round in at Paraparaumu Beach as well.

Mark, in response to your questions re Alex Russell, I can only tell you what was told to me regarding his lack of work.

Sam Berriman, who was the construction supervisor at Huntingdale and who oversaw Charles Allison's generally unspiring design at that course, branched out on his own after World War II.

Berriman built many courses in his home state of Victoria between 1947 and 1966. On many of those projects Russell also submitted a tender but on every occasion Berriman won the contest.

Russell put in a tender for Keysborough and lost out to Berriman, as he did at Horsham, Sale, Shepparton, Southern and Lakes Entrance.

I never met Berriman, but from all accounts he was a very dominant personality and didn't take no for an answer.

Russell, as I have already described, was a withdrawn personality, so it would have been a "no contest" when push came to shove over who was going to sign the contract.

If Berriman hadn't been around, then maybe Russell would have got to design more courses in his home state of Victoria. That is not to say Berriman's courses are not good - they are - or in some cases were - before committees at some of the clubs ran riot in the wrong directions, including my own club.

You are obviously studying golf course architecture Mark, so I can lend you my copy of the History of the Yarra Yarra Golf Club ("From Eyrie to Eagles"). It is now out of print so I'm told, however, I'm sure that you will glean much useful information from the respected penmanship of Joseph Johnson.

You might also be interested to know Mark that I had the pleasure of talking with Sloan Morpeth in early 1970, shortly after he had completed his work on the Peninsula Country Golf Club's South Course.

Unlike Russell, Morpeth was a mine of information with an encyclopaedic knowledge of Australasian golf. Like Russell, he was a product of his era, very proper and gentlemanly. I remember him remarking to me that he thought the then current golf attire (late 60s) was "sloppy", and he lamented that gentlemen golfers has eschewed the wearing of ties as part of their golf clothing accessories.

His seminal work (Peninsula South) is, I believe, often under-apprectiated by many, but for me, it remains one of the best courses in Victoria and therefore, Australia.

A couple of years back I took a visiting American acquaintance down there for a game. He had never heard of the place, but came away with a glowing impression of this most beautiful of courses.

Finally Mark, as you have asked me a few questions, may I take a long bow and ask you one?

Are you in any way related to the brothers Trevor and  Neville Huxford?

As I'm typing this on Christmas morning here in Melbourne, I take this opportuninty, in conclusion, of wishing everyone a very Merry and peaceful Christmas.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Huxford

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2001, 02:19:35 PM »
Sorry Mike, no relation to those men I'm afraid. Please get in touch if you do come down to Wellington though. I would love to have a game sometime. That goes for you Tommy as well of course.

Sam Berriman I did find interesting. I never knew about him. He must have been a very strong personality indeed to wrestle projects away from the nominated Australian partner of MacKenzie who from all accounts never asked for much in return for his services anyway.

---

Is the club you mention after Titirangi, Akarana by any chance? Peter Williams who is a well known sports journalist and editor of "The Cut" golf magazine here in New Zealand is a member at Akarana and likes to drop the Mackenzie link at every available opportunity. I've never actually seen any hard evidence from either news sources at the time or committee minutes that suggest the Good Doctor did any more than have a look around while revising what is now Titirangi. The date of their club is right however at around 1927.

I'm afraid Peter is a fish out of water when he talks about Architecture on his radio slot though so you might be better served contacting the club itself. Interestingly I see from Hedley's notes that W.I Whitton of RM (son of Ivo Whitton) went to another club in NZ that whispers rumors of MacKenzie involvement, the Wellington Golf Club at Heretaunga. Mr Whitton says he found "no evidence of MacKenzie having ever been there".

I always thought Wellington was a MacKenzie course. In fact before Bob Charles altered it, it was a great golf course! I would love to know who designed it if AM didn't.

Mike Clayton I have heard the Heretaunga members aren't too happy with the revisions there and I know myself the greens have never been right since. There could be a potential project for your team. When Lucus won there a few years ago I remember you were in one of the last groups with my friend Mark Brown. That had to be after they changed the course. Do you remember the old stuff? Did you play in 1987 there??

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Duffy

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2001, 03:41:48 PM »
Yes Mark, Berriman, from what I have been told possessed a very powerful personality. It would seem that for the best part of 20 years from the cessation of WWII he built and designed every course in Victoria during that span of years.

He never designed courses anywhere else, just Victoria.

I remember the Wellington Golf Club Mark from my time there. It is now about 35 years since I last played there. I did a little research myself some years ago, after the publication of the Cornish/Whitten tome "The Golf Course", wherein Heretaunga was listed as a Mackenzie creation. Without going through my records(I'm off to the cricket at the MCG in a few minutes Mark), I think the original Heretaunga layout was designed was a Scottish professional golfer by the name of Howling or something similar, who arrived in NZ in the early years of the 20th century. He also designed the very lovely Invercargill Golf Club (Otatara), which if you haven't yet played, I highly recommend.

In short, Mackenzie had nothing to do with Heretaunga whatsoever. His time in Wellington, brief as it was, appears to have been spent hob-nobbing witht the Prime Minister of the day and attending the Wellington Cup race meeting. He could well have called in at Heretaunga on the way back from the races, but my guess is that would be the sum total of his contact with Heretaunga.

The club that has around my curiosity Mark is a place that I have never heard of, called the Whitford Park Country Club. It describes itself on the net as a 1927 Mackenzie creation and as "New Zealand's most known course". Well I for one have never heard of it, have you Mark?

If you go to the website World Golf Courses, and click on NZ, then click on Auckland, the Whitford Park CC is listed amongst the first 20 entries. I'm intrigued by the description, but like Mr Williams' assertions, I would expect that in the end there is little substance to the claims.

I  remember Royal Akarana too, but if that is a Mackenzie design, then he must have been drunk when he drew the layout. I suspect the Good Doctor went there for a snort of Scotch and ended up being acclaimed as the course designer.

As I have said before on another net site, there are too many people genuflecting at mere mention of Mackenzie's name. That leads to others falsely claiming a Mackenzie connection where none in fact exist.

I would love to know your thoughts or information you may have at hand in regards to the Whitford Park CC assertions. It could save me a heap of time when I arrive in Auckland next year.

And yes, I would very much like to meet you and have a game around the delightul Paraparaumu Beach layout next year. I have some very happy memories of that place.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2001, 08:01:53 PM »
Mark

I played Herataunga in 81,87 and 95 and dont recall many holes better than 5 out of 10. Beautiful clubhouse and 1st hole but I do remember the par 3 green on the back 9 -14 I think- with the green with 3 levels and the high point in the front and the low at the back - surely they built Sir Bobs green back the front and its not suprising the members are not happy.

I dont know the history of the Russell, Berriman rivalry but its astounding Berriman could have won any job over Russell. Berriman was superintendant at Huntingdale and his bunkering at Huntingdale,Cranbourne, Keysborough and Shepparton is/was as dull as Russell's and Morcom's was brilliant. Russell's work was simply a different league.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2001, 08:37:06 PM »
Royal Melbourne West
Kingston Heath
Victoria
Commonwealth
Metropolitan
Royal Melbourne East
Yarra Yarra
Peninsula South
Woodlands

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2001, 02:53:08 AM »
Chris

Cant let that through to the keeper. Which holes at Woodlands do you think are bad?

Also I think we have to be really careful with the 'great' word.There is only one great course on the sandbelt ,I think, but there is an awful lot of great work there.

Dead right about the trees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2001, 03:08:07 AM »
Mike

Certainly agree that Royal West is head and shoulders above the rest, primarily because it's maintained its integrity throughout the years, unlike most of the rest on the belt.

Whilst I dont entirely agree with Chris Kane, I do feel that perhaps you rate Woodland a little high. I've always thought that 1 was a weak hole as is 6 (?) the par five, and that 18 was a soft finish. I do like the short holes though, and those tiny concrete greens can be buggers to hit if you're in the wrong part of the fairway (which I guess is what its all about). I guess the quality of Woodlands shows just how lucky we Melbournians are.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard Chamberlain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2001, 04:40:55 PM »
Seeing we have a Melbourne theme going here, i'd like to hear you thoughts on the courses down on the Mornington peninsula.

I'm a Queenslander stuck up here in palm tree country and have only been to the peninsula twice (both times without clubs).

I had a look around Cape Schanck, The National, The Dunes, Eagle Ridge, and the two other National courses under construction in addition to the Moonah course under construction. Never got to any of the other club courses down there though.

On setting and dynamic appeal alone I found it hard to go past the original National Course. Of course this is without a club in my hand. The Dunes also gave me a good "feeling" on first appearances.

While were in Vic, how has the Nicklaus designed Heritage come up ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Huxford

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2001, 05:59:19 PM »

Mike Duffy, can't remember if I have asked this question of you in the past or not, but do you have a transcript of your interview with Russell? Was it for a newspaper, magazine??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin Ryan

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2001, 07:56:11 PM »
Dr Kildare/Mike Clayton

There is a review of the Moonah course at The National which was written when it opened in October 2000  at http://www.ausgolf.com.au/thenational.htm.  The thing in this review that got my attention was Mike Clayton's ranking it as the second best course in Australia.   Mike, assuming that RMW is number one, do you still rate it higher than Kingston Heath, Metropolitan, etc?  And how do you think it stacks up to the neighbouring Ocean course?  DK, you are also right about the spectacular nature of the original National course.  I suspect it would be more highly rated if some of the people who do these rankings were a little bit more imaginative around the greens.  Like Augusta, there are just some spots you shouldn't hit it, so to whinge about the greens is a bit of a cop-out.  You also want to have a game at Portsea when you are down next, it just keeps on getting better.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2001, 10:09:51 PM »
Justin

It's amazing all these things we are supposed to have said.I once said something like 'it ought to be the second best course in Australia' but that was well before it was finished.In a partnership with IBF and Tom Doak we tried to get that job and we all spent a lot of time on the land and it was good enough ,I thought, to get at least one of the courses into the top 3
In the Top 25 out in Golf Australia magazine this month I had The Moonah course at 8 and it came in 10 overall. I described it as 'the best course built here in 60 years' It's a very good course but that comment was also aimed at the quality of work done since Mackenzie and Russell left us.

I think Moonah is clearly the best of the 3 courses at The National. There are places you can't hit to at RM and 2 putt just like the origional National but RM's greens work so much better - somehow much more subtle.

Glad you like Portsea -great fun and hopefully getting bettter.

Dr Kildare

I played The Heritage a few months ago and off the back tees I hit 4, 3 and 2 iron and 3 wood to the par 3's.In a city of world class par 3's nearly all of which are under 175 yards those big holes didnt really do it for me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin Ryan

Re: Yarra Yarra
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2001, 11:22:59 PM »
Mike

I had a feeling that you may have been misquoted/taken out of context with that comment.  I can also understand why you don't want to comment on the Ocean course.  I felt that it is a terrible shame that Tom Doak wasn't chosen to do the third course at The National, but I presume that the board felt that the Thomson Wolveridge Perrett brand would sell more memberships.  If the club wanted to have the best courses possible, they would have chosen the Doak option, and I'm sure that then they wouldn't have had to remodel several of the greens within the first year.  I for one am hoping that the proposed new courses go ahead, and that you get to do one of them with Tom Doak.  I don't know if you have been over the proposed new site, but it looks just as good from across the fence, and hopefully you will get your chance to build a top three course (or will you be pushed down to four by Barnbougle?).  I agree that the Moonah is the best course there, and with The Glades in Queensland being highly rated as well, Greg Norman Design are certainly doing very well.

I wasn't comparing the greens on the original National to RM, I don't believe that Robert Trent Jones and subtle greens are usually linked, just that many people who play there don't consider their full range of options for getting it close.  

Dr Kildare
I'm with Mike on the Heritage.  The signature hole is the par three 11th, with water short and right, a cliff face back and left and a bunker left.  It struck me that it would be a good hole if it was 125-130 metres, but at 176 metres, often into the wind, it is just silly.  I have been told that it looks the same as Mt Juliet, which looks the same as a lot of other Nicklaus courses, maybe somebody else could comment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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