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Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« on: October 28, 2011, 11:11:39 AM »

Anyone else sitting in the office today thinking that they should be at Dixie Cup, playing Ballyhack today and Kanawha and Kinloch tomorrow.  I cannot believe that I could not make this trip work.  That thing called my law practice always gets in the way.

Hope participants are having a great time and staying dry.  Keep us posted as to your thoughts on each course.

A couple of questions:

1.  Ballyhack - is it top 100 in US worthy?  Likes/dislikes?   
2.  How does Kanawha compare to The Dunes Club or Threetops?
3.  Where does Kinloch fall in best courses in US?  I have often heard that it is incredibly good.

Thanks guys and again, have a great time.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 11:32:00 AM »
Count me as being in the same boat, Michael. My Gore-Tex could stand the workout. ;D Received some texts from there late last night. Lies I tell you. All lies.

Anthony Gray

Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 12:16:55 PM »


  I can't get around second hand smoke.


Mike Tanner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 12:48:05 PM »
I've played Kinloch and Ballyhack one time each, so in that respect I know what I'm missing at this edition of the Dixie Cup. I've never played a round of golf, much less multiple rounds with any other CGA'ers, so I don't know what I'm missing there.

Sure wish I was finding out this week.

Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 01:45:16 PM »
The weather in SW VA is horrible here in Bristol.  I can't imagine it is real pleasant 2 hours up the road.  Hang in there guys.

Temp 42 with a moderate rain.

Ugh.

Bart

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 01:46:39 PM »
I waited 1 day to sign up, and ended up at 15th alternate, so I attended Wade Whitehead's outing last month instead at Ballyhack.  My number eventually ended up being called, but I had to pass based on my other trip.

1)  BALLYHACK
In my opinion, I believe Ballyhack is worthy of a Top 100 Ranking, but I have a very good understanding of why it may not get ranked as such.  Ballyhack can be quite a polarizing course simply due to the overall rugged nature of the course, as well as a few quirky features that Lester built in (e.g. the "Short Porch" strategy on #15).  It is not a course that people will fully appreciate after just one visit, which makes it pretty tough to get the "quick hit rater love."  I had several discussions / debates about the course with Brad Klein earlier this year, and it helped me understand why some may not appreciate it as much as I do.  In fact, some of the things he mentioned as holding the course back were some of the very same things I enjoyed about it, so you have to take any quantitative ranking with a grain of salt.

With respect to my personal likes:
- The property itself is simply one of the most awe-inspiring I have experienced.  I separate courses into those that I "see" vs. those that I "feel."  Ballyhack definitely falls into the latter category.  With a minimal amount of trees and significant elevation changes, you get many opportunities to take in the overall vista of the course throughout the round.  

-  There are several spectacular holes with multiples options and ways of attacking (plenty of width in most cases).  There are very few (if any) holes that you'll forget after just one visit or that will "blend in" with similar holes you've played elsewhere.  The 1st features a "heart-stopping" tee shot, but you'll reflect after the hole and realize, "that wasn't really all that hard" (unless you forget about the immense false front on the green).  The 2nd is one of the best Par 5s I've seen, especially when you may have 150 yards of width to choose from off the tee.  I could go on about numerous holes, but my favorite features are the 3rd green (making it one of the toughest par 3s around), the entire 5th hole (called the "most Irish Hole in America"), the landing zone on the 12th, the green on the 17th (very cool use of segments and slope to make a short-iron Par 3 challenging), and the 18th green (where a pin sheet indicator or +/- 40 yards is not a typo).  

-  Working in concert with the options is the truly firm & fast maintenance of the course. If your favorite shot is the low, running punch, you have every opportunity to use that shot, with only a handful of exceptions.  When we played the course in September, we were astonished to hear that there had been something like 18 inches of rain in the previous two weeks.  The course was not lightning  quick on account of this, but was still firm enough that we had no indication of such a deluge.

- Personally, I liked the fact that Lester refuses to become obsessed with green speed as some type of "measuring contest."  Some of the group actually thought they were too slow, but when you consider some of the severe internal contours, I think Lester's approach at Ballyhack is the right one.

As you can tell, I'm a big fan of the course.  In some areas, I'd prefer the native grass to be further away from the corridors or "tamed' in others, but you simply need to embrace that it will be an inspiring, thought-provoking, and sometimes vicious test of your game.


2)  Can't opine on this one.


3)  If you play both Kinloch and Ballyhack, you probably can't believe that the same architect was involved in the design.  Kinloch is the antithesis of Ballyhack in terms of conditioning, feel, green speed, atmosphere, etc.   The one consistent theme that you do see from Lester is the variety of attack angles and strategies that can be employed, especially on the short Par 4s and Par 5s.  My head exploded on the 9th trying to imagine all the different ways the hole could be played.  But other than that, the differences couldn't be more stark.

You can definitely see the influence that Augusta had on Vinny Giles and certain features he wanted to have incorporated at Kinloch.  The playing corridors are very wide, as you will sometimes have 30-40 yards of rough on either side of the fairway before you reach any  significant trouble.  However, although you won't lose your ball in the rough, it is enough of a nuisance to make things difficult for you, especially when you consider the significant speed of the greens.  You will always have a chance to make the miracle recovery, but anything less than an ideal recovery has no chance of staying in the proper section of the green.  The risk/reward reachable Par 5 is also prevalent at Kinloch (ala ANGC's 13th & 15th).

Overall, Kinloch is a wonderful parkland golf course and worthy of its Top 100 ranking.  It will never have the same polarizing effect on a rater that Ballyhack can have, which is why I think Ballyhack will probably never get the same average "quantitative" ratings.  However, if you simply looked at "qualitative" reviews of the two courses, I think you may see more "passion" in the discussion of Ballyhack, which is probably why I personally give it the edge among Lester's two creations.


Sam Morrow

Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 01:51:19 PM »
I've played Kinloch and Ballyhack one time each, so in that respect I know what I'm missing at this edition of the Dixie Cup. I've never played a round of golf, much less multiple rounds with any other CGA'ers, so I don't know what I'm missing there.

Sure wish I was finding out this week.


Where you from?

Dale_McCallon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 03:17:41 PM »
As many times as I'd made the drive thru VA I sadly have never got to play at either site.  So when Mr Whitaker posted the info about the trip, I was in from day one...until I realized this is the weekend my company does its yearly inventory...so I was out.

Would love to be there, and for those who haven't had the chance to attend a GCA outing they truly are a good time.  Wish i had the time/money to make it to more of them myself.

Sorry to hear about the weather, but I'm sure the spirits will stay high.

Jimmy Chandler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2011, 10:38:29 PM »
Michael --

I have not played nearly enough courses to determine where Ballyhack rates, but I can say this: I have played three other world-class courses (Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, & Kingsley Club). If you discard the issue that Ballyhack requires a cart and focus solely on the quality of the architecture, I think Ballyhack stands with those three courses, and may not be 4th on the list.

If I could only play one course for the rest of my life and it had to be one of these four, I would probably pick Pac Dunes or Ballyneal, in part due to the walkability. But I would be a very happy man with any of these courses.

Ballyhack is easily the most difficult course I have ever enjoyed playing. It is significantly more difficult than the other three I've listed. It's also built on a seemingly massive scale, everything feels enormous: greens, fairways, hazards.

My favorite hole is #2, and it's probably my favorite par 5 anywhere. The strategy required in the layup and approach is fascinating, due to the fronting bunker and a skyline-type green that slopes away from you.

Especially since Ballyhack is open to visiting play, I say it is a must visit if possible and definitely worth a trip. It's a unique course, and the staff is amazing as well.

I will be interested to hear tomorrow at Kinloch what Dixie cuppers felt and how these two courses compare.

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2011, 06:32:54 PM »
1. I'll be starting a hole by hole thread on Ballyhack this winter and don't want to jump the gun.  However, I'll relay: A prominent amateur played the course for the first time and said "That might be the most difficult course I've ever played."  After his second round (the same day) he said "That might be the most fun golf course I've ever played."  Ballyhack can't be digested in one play.  Only after multiple treks does one begin to take in its scale, its angles and its possibilities.  In my view it's absolutely a Top 100 course.  Every hole is all world but its real strength lies in its great stretches.  Ping a group for the best three-hole stretch at Augusta; nearly everyone will agree on 11-13.  Play Pebble and nearly everyone agrees on 7-9.  Play Ballyhack, however, and you'll be hard pressed to find consensus.  12 gents will have a dozen answers for the best stretch.  That illuminates what I believe to be Ballyhack's most unique - and greatest - trait.

2. I haven't played the par three but can say, based on photos and discussion with colleagues who have, that it's tough to beat.

3. Kinloch deserves every recognition it receives.  I think a top ten on the Best Modern list is a suitable spot.  The golf course is that good but the facility and experience Phil Owenby and his staff provide puts it absolutely over the top.

Like Jimmy I look forward to hearing from the Dixie Cuppers.  I joined them for dinner on Thursday night but certainly not for golf in the rainy 40s we experienced on Friday.  Here's hoping the weekend will present a more comfortable environment for the crew.

WW

PS Dale, message me the next time you're coming by Roanoke.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2011, 08:05:36 AM »
The Dixie Cuppers are a hardy bunch.   Friday at Ballyhack was chilly and deteriorating, with sleet late in the round.  Yesterday at Kinloch was worse, with a steady rain and temp high '30's.   Today there's a one hr frost delay at Providence, a public course designed by our host, Lester George, here in Richmond.   

Kinloch might be the loveliest course I've ever played, with the autumn leaves still colorful.   It's such a cool place.   Lester has been a most gracious host but was unable to arrange better weather!   ;D

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2011, 08:30:23 AM »
Glad I came. Good practice weather for Bandon next month. Our play and visit to Kawanha was cancelled because of the weather. 

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2011, 10:50:00 AM »

Really sorry to hear about the weather.  I guess the Dixie Cup will not be getting this close to the Mason Dixon line for the foreseeable future.

Hope everyone still had a great time.

"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Sam Morrow

Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2011, 10:53:29 AM »
Weather is glorious here in Houston.

Mike Tanner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2011, 01:38:17 PM »
I've played Kinloch and Ballyhack one time each, so in that respect I know what I'm missing at this edition of the Dixie Cup. I've never played a round of golf, much less multiple rounds with any other CGA'ers, so I don't know what I'm missing there.

Sure wish I was finding out this week.


Where you from?

Va. Beach.
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2011, 02:33:29 PM »
I just heard this morning that Mr. Duran holed out for two on the twelfth at Ballyhack on Friday.  Not even sleet can take the luster away from that accomplishment!

WW

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2011, 04:52:27 PM »

Really sorry to hear about the weather.  I guess the Dixie Cup will not be getting this close to the Mason Dixon line for the foreseeable future.

Hope everyone still had a great time.


Lester warned us!    We gambled and lost.   Still had a great time playing three outstanding courses in cold weather.   North won, more to come. 

Sam Morrow

Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2011, 09:58:51 PM »
I've played Kinloch and Ballyhack one time each, so in that respect I know what I'm missing at this edition of the Dixie Cup. I've never played a round of golf, much less multiple rounds with any other CGA'ers, so I don't know what I'm missing there.

Sure wish I was finding out this week.


Where you from?

Va. Beach.

If you ever get down towards Texas you let me know.

Jamey Bryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2011, 07:17:51 AM »
Wade:

While Lou's deuce on 12 was, indeed, a feat of monumental proportions, I must point out that it is the second deuce on that hole by a GCA'er .  A certain bald man who smokes and rides in carts when caddies aren't available made the first (albeit in much more benign conditions) in the George Cup gathering a couple of months ago (witnessed by Aaron Dooley, no less)!

Lester's comment Friday night was that he obviously needed to look into strengthening the hole......

Jamey

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2011, 10:27:24 AM »
When Mike Boehm hit an incredible iron to within 6 feet then made the birdie on 12 on Friday I said,
"Noone is going to cut that skin."  Little did I know Mr. Duran (the greatest fairway wood player I've
ever seen) had eagled it in the group ahead of us.

My only success on that hole was reaching the bottom tier on Friday.  Thursday I blew the only ball I
lost the entire round right.  Luckily I found it sitting outside my cottage bedroom window the next
morning.

I have never played in worse weather, but have rarely had as much fun playing and cavorting with my
fellow GCAers.  The sunset at Kinloch making the tops of the trees burn like yellow fire was a wonderful
thing.

My favorite things from the weekend:

Lester, McBride and Topp building a fire outside my bedroom window (instead of their own cottage) to
finish off a bottle of scotch.  My initial grumpiness turned to happiness after I joined them for a great
trip down memory lane with Lester (we both spent our early golf careers in Virginia) and getting to
watch the end of that amazing baseball game that had put me to sleep two hours earlier.

Mike Boehme hitting a Pinnacle I found 310 yards and barely missing the 323 yard drivable par 4 # 6th at
Kinloch.

Ballyhack egg salad.

Kinloch peanut butter.

Kinloch shower temperature guages.

Adjusting my approach shots 3 clubs for the wind and ice at Ballyhack.

It was a great weekend despite the challenges.  Thank you Lester, Bill and Michael for a great trip.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2011, 11:00:04 AM »

Lester, McBride and Topp building a fire outside my bedroom window (instead of their own cottage) to
finish off a bottle of scotch.  My initial grumpiness turned to happiness after I joined them for a great
trip down memory lane with Lester (we both spent our early golf careers in Virginia) and getting to
watch the end of that amazing baseball game that had put me to sleep two hours earlier.


Now I feel a little ashamed for the George Cup Group.  We had better weather, yet couldn't find the gumption to build a fire on either night (maybe that's because the interior of the cottages were just that comfortable for our nightly discussions).

Looking forward to some future board discussions about Lester's Virginia offerings.

Sam Morrow

Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2011, 11:17:11 AM »
Did Topp run out of Coors Light?

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2011, 11:19:56 AM »
I had a great time as well and want to say thank you to all involved esp. Mike, Bill, Craig and Lester in making this years event come to fruition.  

While we are discussing Ballyhack and Kinloch a lot, I wanted to mention that Providence Golf Club is a wonderful course with some really fun golf holes with great variety, had I not had such a long drive ahead of me after yesterday's round, I would have been back on the first tee box again.  

The short Par 4 10th hole is a blast, hope I can finish it if I play there again.  

If you are in the Richmond area, do yourself a favor and check it out.


Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2011, 11:40:51 AM »
Since there are 2 Dixie Cup threads floating around, I will post on both.

I would like to congratulate Bill McBride, Mike Whitaker and Lester George for putting together a wonderful event.
Outstanding work gentlemen.
Friday at Ballyhack.


The 18th.
Thanks also to Lester and Evan for coordinating the BBQ at Buz and Ned's. Best ribs I have had.

Carving the brisket tableside.


Saturday at Kinloch.

Options abound on the par 5 9th.


Looking back down 18.

And last but not least, to the South team captain Mark Pritchett.
Your pairings speech Saturday night will go down in the annals of golf history.
The stuff legends are made of.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Missing Dixie Cup Blues
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2011, 12:02:30 PM »

Lester, McBride and Topp building a fire outside my bedroom window (instead of their own cottage) to
finish off a bottle of scotch.  My initial grumpiness turned to happiness after I joined them for a great
trip down memory lane with Lester (we both spent our early golf careers in Virginia) and getting to
watch the end of that amazing baseball game that had put me to sleep two hours earlier.


Now I feel a little ashamed for the George Cup Group.  We had better weather, yet couldn't find the gumption to build a fire on either night (maybe that's because the interior of the cottages were just that comfortable for our nightly discussions).

Looking forward to some future board discussions about Lester's Virginia offerings.

That was Thursday night, not too cold yet.   The weather turned with a vengeance early Friday morning.    Temperature around 38-40o, wind 15-30 mph, and sleet during the last few holes.    :o

Saturday at Kinloch was cold and wet, same temperature plus rain all day, luckily no wind to speak of.   Really good caddies which helped a lot, and walking makes you feel better.   Riding Friday we were cold as hell.    Lester and Jonathan Ireland of Ballyhack brought hot chocolate out to us on the course, very welcome!

Sunday at Providence saw an hour frost delay and 40o to start, but again it was okay because we walked and the blood circulated!

I have never before played in such lousy weather.    Dixie Cuppers, it turns out, are a hardy crew!

With the regard to the golf architecture, Lester is such a talented GCA and always seems to find the best holes out there.    I knew how really good both Kinloch and Ballyhack were going to be, and was not disappointed at all, but was really astonished at how good Providence is for an affordable daily fee course.   If I lived in Richmond (and couldn't afford to be a Kinloch member  ::) ), I would play my golf at Providence.   It's that good.  

Thanks more than we can express to Lester George, who really "got it" with regard to the Dixie Cup and went way beyond 100% to help us have as good an experience as possible playing three of his courses.    All the meal functions, a veritable carnivores' ball of BBQ followed by ribeyes of the highest quality at Kinloch, were excellent.   We needed all those calories out on the course.   Lester, thanks for all your kind help in putting together this outstanding Dixie Cup.  

And many thanks to Jonathan Ireland of Ballyhack, Phil Owenby of Kinloch, and Bobby Green of Providence, for their great hospitality.   A special thanks to Bobby and Lester for the very nice baseball caps.      In spite of the awful weather, you all made this a memorable Dixie Cup!

It was a shame we were unable to play Kanawha, but the weather Saturday morning was impossible.   Thanks anyway, it would a good morning visit. 

One final thought:   Did anyone think to video Mark's speech?    No?   Damn!   ;D
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 12:07:42 PM by Bill_McBride »

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