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DMoriarty

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Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2011, 06:42:34 PM »
Kalen, I understand your point and it is interesting, but I suspect that what may have happened is that there is sort of a vague baseline minimum of length required for success, and so comparing within the tour is rather pointless because all of those without an extremely high swing speed never have a chance of getting there or staying there.   So we are comparing differentials between individuals who are all very long.  You probably already understood this.

Ironically, the tour players have gotten so long that I wonder if the longest of the long are no longer being rewarded for their distance advantage.   Courses aren't made for people who can dial up 320+ yard carries at will, and on most golf holes they have nowhere to go, so they hit three wood or utility club to the proper place on holes built for drivers.  Even really long par "fives" are reachable to almost all the field.   

Imagine how long a par five would have to be to make it reachable in two to only the longest hitters.   Don't go by averages, but by how far they could hit it if they really ripped at one and caught it perfect, and then did the same with a three wood.   A barely reachable par 3 from twenty years ago.    Welcome to the 800 yard par five.

I didn't watch much of the PGA championship (maybe it was the USOpen, I don't remember) but recall a pathetic attempt to create interest by making a slight dogleg par 4 drivable, and recall Mickelson on the tee debating with his caddy whether three wood or utility club was the correct club.  A utility club to a "drivable" par 4?   A potentially drivable par 4 is supposed to advantage the long hitter who can control his driver and is willing to take a chance, yet utility club is an option?  Isn't that like a par four drivable with a three iron?    (By the way, this will happen a lot at Merion No. 10 if they put the tee where they did at the amateur.  Mickelson over clubbed with a three wood and couldn't take enough off of it and airmailed everything.   

And of course the irony and the problem is that most golfers haven't benefited much if at all in driving distance.  So the architecture becomes impossible.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Kyle Harris

Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2011, 06:50:02 PM »
I didn't watch much of the PGA championship (maybe it was the USOpen, I don't remember) but recall a pathetic attempt to create interest by making a slight dogleg par 4 drivable, and recall Mickelson on the tee debating with his caddy whether three wood or utility club was the correct club.  A utility club to a "drivable" par 4?   A potentially drivable par 4 is supposed to advantage the long hitter who can control his driver and is willing to take a chance, yet utility club is an option?  Isn't that like a par four drivable with a three iron?    (By the way, this will happen a lot at Merion No. 10 if they put the tee where they did at the amateur.  Mickelson over clubbed with a three wood and couldn't take enough off of it and airmailed everything.   

This was during The Open Championship at St. George's.

The hole was playing downwind.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2011, 09:51:10 PM »

This was during The Open Championship at St. George's.

The hole was playing downwind.

Maybe something similar happened at the Open as well, but the instance I am talking about was not St. George's.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2011, 10:21:10 PM »
An article in yesterday's NYT's indicated that the "bombers" were starting to dominate the tour.

Today, Johnny Miller mentioned that for the first time that he can remember, the golfer that led an event in driving distance also led the event in driving accuracy.  That's mind boggling since driving the ball longer and retaining the drive in the fairway requires reduced margins of error.

So, golfers are swinging harder/faster yet hitting the ball longer and straighter.

Soon, 400 yard par 4's will be drives and chips, 300 yard par 4's, ... par 3's.

Paul Cowley's comment today is telling.
The elimination of fixed point strategies is unfortunate

Over 20 years ago, Ron Prichard wrote to the USGA predicting this outcome if the USGA didn't regulate or reign in distance, so the concept and threat to the game of dramatically increased certainly isn't new to the ruling bodies.

Augusta needs to adopt a tournament ball.
Failure to do so will have them purchasing the remainder of the town adjacent to the club and stretching the course out to 8,500 yards and that still won't be enough.

End of rant  ;D

Rick Wolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2011, 08:30:46 AM »
Too bad the governing bodies De Jure don't have the balls (no pun intended) to fix the problem.

Me thinks the manufacturers, which arguably are the "De facto" governing bodies of golf, may soon be the power behind the bifurcation of equipment rules for the pro tour versus amateur golf.

They are starting to talk about it in the media and they may soon realize that they will sell more clubs and increase revenues and profits, if they bifurcate the rules, because top level amateurs will buy both types of clubs. 

Just look at baseball, all players at the high school and college level with aspirations to play pro ball, carry wooden and aluminum bats in their bags.

Me also thinks that Merion is the Maginot line for the governing bodies (both De facto and De jure), and perhaps something may be negotiated out of court before the blitzkrieg bombers arrives.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2011, 09:42:20 AM »
You guys are firing off at the wrong target(s)!

What percentage of golfers are able to use today's equipment in a manner that causes all these problems you're worried about?

For that matter, what are the problems, exactly?

When is the last time the USGA/R&A forced a club to rebuild/renovate? It's never happened!!!



I agree that longer/bigger courses with less interesting features are a problem for the health of the game...but I think you all need to look closer to home to place blame. I think it's the conversations between the architects and their clients that need to be exposed.

Jud_T

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Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2011, 09:49:53 AM »
My son is 12.  His driver has 15 degrees of loft.  He hits it 240.  There's a problem...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2011, 09:57:10 AM »
For whom?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2011, 10:11:08 AM »
Jim,

Let's just take my family as an example.  Let's say 10 years from now when my son is 22 and I'm 60 he's hitting it 320 while I'm hitting it hopefully 225 at that point and my wife's hitting it 165.  It won't make for a very social game if he's walking back or we're walking up 100 yards on every hole to play a match together.  Not to mention the cost of golf if it's going to be anything but a pitch and putt affair for him...    
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 10:12:43 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2011, 10:17:01 AM »
Jud,

Why would one of you walk 100 yards from the other?

If we took only those players that legitimately hit the ball over 300 yards with their driver, I still think less than 10% figure oiut a way to play the game such that the course would ever be considered a pitch and putt...and for those that are, why is it the USGA's responsibility to "fix" that as opposed to the course itself and presumably a professional architect.

The numbers of violating golfer simply does not support the outcry. The clubs themselves have overreacted to the perceived problem of your son hitting the ball quite far.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2011, 10:28:17 AM »
Jud,

Why would one of you walk 100 yards from the other?



So the same hazards and strategy come into play, at least for 1 shot per hole?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2011, 10:31:12 AM »
It's not just the distance the tour pros are hitting with their drivers. It's their ability to hit 3-woods 280 yards and hybrids 240 or more with precision that's also tearing down courses. Years ago Johnny Miller said one of the most prescient things I've ever heard him say, which is that the metal 3-wood would have a greater influence on play than any other club change. When a player can hit a 280-yard tee shot essentially risk free, or get to the green on a par-5 from that far out, that is a quantum change in the game as big or bigger than routine 325 yard drives.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2011, 10:43:20 AM »
Jud,

Why would one of you walk 100 yards from the other?



So the same hazards and strategy come into play, at least for 1 shot per hole?


Putting aside, for the moment, the fact that you'll both face everything the green complex has to offer, what "theory" told you everyone should face, and deal with, the same hazards off the tee?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2011, 11:07:56 AM »
Then why not simply have 1 one-size-fits-all tee?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2011, 11:25:29 AM »
I agree...in principle. But why should you and I make that decision from our computer screens? Why shouldn't the club and architect make that decision? Certainly the governing bodies shouldn't, should they?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2011, 11:42:05 AM »
...
When is the last time the USGA/R&A forced a club to rebuild/renovate? It's never happened!!!
...

What is your definition of forced? Certainly the USGA and R&A have asked for mods and the clubs have complied. Was that not an implicit forcing?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2011, 11:54:42 AM »
Reading this thread reminded me that one of the charms and challenges of golf is that we're forced to think.  (I haven't played football in decades, but I could run out in my street shoes today and feel pretty sure of catching just about everything thrown my way; that sport, like tennis and soccer etc, are mostly about reacting).  The long hitting greats of the past -- Hogan and Nicklaus come to mind -- were equally famous for their ability to think, for their golfing "minds" as well as shot-making skills, for their methodical approach and steady temperaments; while Norman and Weiskopf would've won a whole bunch majors if their thinking had been better.  It'd be a shame if all the increased distance of the last decade took out/minimized that element of the game.

Peter

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2011, 12:35:17 PM »

I fear that we have forgotten that the game at hand is GOLF. A game that normally requires the players to combat the land as well as the Designer’s cunning. I feel that the Designer has failed, himself, his client and the game of golf (unless instructed to do so by an ignorant owner/club committee) if he allows the long aerial drive to continue on its path uninterrupted. Gentlemen that’s the sole purpose of a Design to test the players, but we have become so scared of upsetting golfers who seem to want it easy, because of that most important of golfing trophies ones score.

Chase your tail for your great scores or lower handicap and watch your game lose all its fun and enjoyment on the way. Of course that does not apply if playing golf is how you make your money, because you are heading head first into being a Tiger Mark 2, - will not be long before  first the spitting, swearing then throwing the clubs followed by rather piss poor performance, but if that your life, you can keep it because it is only applicable to a hand full of players.

Come on guys break through this testosterone barrier when it come to your score, pursue it and become a dickhead, let it go and you may well be surprised that you have played better than ever before as no pressure from that sodding Scorecard. Nevertheless the course must represent a challenge, it’s the first line of defence, of players enjoyment and I sincerely believe that both clubs/owners and designers have a very serious duty of care when it comes to our courses. There are many options at the beck and call of the Designer, from the old bunkers through to many other man made hazards. One I love is the old dry stone walls located in the right area forcing a player to plan their shots, not just hit the wham bam thank you Mam scenario we get today.

In my book long drives are of no use on a golf course, they defeat the basics of the game by using brawn in place of brain as well as removing much of the course from the playing zone, which still has to be paid for in maintenance etc. costs.

One day, many a golfer may realise that golf is about using one mind not physical power, it really is a game of chess but on a much larger scale. The course dictates the time to attack, defend, to move forward or hold firm. It’s not about Island Greens, Greens and/or fairways surrounded by bunkers, not forgetting the golfers aid those ‘shallow bunkers’ or protecting a Green with additional bunkers to the rear, lets the wayward ball find its own resting place, all alas is just down to piss poor design.

I firmly believe that Designers need to use their skills and force a stop to the long aerial drives off the Tees and fairways, but in hazards that really test the players. If they want to try that approach and yes make it bloody penal. I love watching skilled golfer finding themselves in surprising locations (for various reason, not just a result of poor shot) then watch some work out their next shot and how to combat this error, surprisingly how many just hit hell out of the next ball believing in power over thought, alas to find themselves still in the sh&t. Roll back, yes but the Designers have it in their ability if only their Clients could actually understand the game.

Easy has hurt the game since WW2, it continues to do so, but when even sites like GCA.com can’t or won’t get together to form a united front, what else do you expect.

The answer as always lies in good quality honest design and re-introducing some of the old design features. The balls are round, they are meant to roll, so let them do so freely pressurising the player to control is game.

Stop pampering to the poor golfer (whatever his scorecard may say).

Melvyn

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2011, 06:25:40 PM »
Jud,

Why would one of you walk 100 yards from the other?

If we took only those players that legitimately hit the ball over 300 yards with their driver, I still think less than 10% figure oiut a way to play the game such that the course would ever be considered a pitch and putt...and for those that are, why is it the USGA's responsibility to "fix" that as opposed to the course itself and presumably a professional architect.

The numbers of violating golfer simply does not support the outcry. The clubs themselves have overreacted to the perceived problem of your son hitting the ball quite far.

Jim

I have been bangin that drum for a while.  Folks don't want to hear about what they will do to effect change.  Folks want some stranger in a blue blazer to effect all change and be blamed for all problems.  It would be much easier for those that really do believe length is killing the game to take personal responsibility.  It would be much easier if clubs did the same.  It is ludicrous to think something is wrong and yet somehow justify continuing to spend money on adding to the wrong.  Like I said, folks don't want freedom to the do the "right" thing.  They are more concerned about their club championships and making sure that a multi-lateral step down takes place because Lord knows they don't want to be disadvantaged while hitting a white ball.  Is it possible that these same go getters in other aspects of their lives can be such a whingy bunch on this issue?  I know, I know, qualifers for the We Want to Host a Championship Country Club's Joe Blow Annual This Tournament Exists At Every Club But Is Oh So Special Enough To Ignore My Beliefs is just around the corner and everybody entering thinks its their year if they could only add 10 yards to their drive.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2011, 07:08:09 PM »
Jud,

Why would one of you walk 100 yards from the other?

If we took only those players that legitimately hit the ball over 300 yards with their driver, I still think less than 10% figure oiut a way to play the game such that the course would ever be considered a pitch and putt...and for those that are, why is it the USGA's responsibility to "fix" that as opposed to the course itself and presumably a professional architect.

The numbers of violating golfer simply does not support the outcry. The clubs themselves have overreacted to the perceived problem of your son hitting the ball quite far.


Jim,

If you believe that the architect created the architectural features with the intent of having them interface with the golfer, then you're wrong.

When a bunker is placed to challenge the golfer off the tee, but, today's golfer flies that bunker by 60 yards, the bunker has lost its intended architectural significance to that golfer.  So how do you restore that relationship ?  Two ways, either reign in the I&B or lengthen the golf course.

That's the sad reality.


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2011, 11:07:05 PM »

Quote
Three stats stand out:

> 4.6 yards increase on the US PGA Tour from June 2010 to June 2011, the largest increase since 2003

.............................


For whatever it's worth the year-end 2010 to September 2011 numbers say the increase is a slightly more modest 3.8 yards.  And from 2007 to today it is an even more modest 2.8 yards.  I suspect that the year over year numbers do not speak to a trend upward yet.

The longest hitter's number year-over-year is not trending anywhere it appears.

If you look at the pre-2000 numbers there was a trend upwards prior to the pro-v phenomenon.  If that trend had continued through fitness, driver technology and agronomic practices, etc with no new ball technology, then the average tour distance now would be around 275 yards rather than 290.

In any event, the driver distance genie was out of the bottle 10 years ago.  It doesn't seem appreciably more out of the bottle now than 10 years ago.  Perhaps all we're seeing is more long bombers learning how to play the rest of the game and sticking around the tour longer.

I'm curious what those that want the ball rolled back 10% to corral driver distance think the impact will be on Mickelson et al hitting 7 irons 210 yards.





Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2011, 02:03:12 AM »
Jud,

Why would one of you walk 100 yards from the other?

If we took only those players that legitimately hit the ball over 300 yards with their driver, I still think less than 10% figure oiut a way to play the game such that the course would ever be considered a pitch and putt...and for those that are, why is it the USGA's responsibility to "fix" that as opposed to the course itself and presumably a professional architect.

The numbers of violating golfer simply does not support the outcry. The clubs themselves have overreacted to the perceived problem of your son hitting the ball quite far.


Jim,

If you believe that the architect created the architectural features with the intent of having them interface with the golfer, then you're wrong.

When a bunker is placed to challenge the golfer off the tee, but, today's golfer flies that bunker by 60 yards, the bunker has lost its intended architectural significance to that golfer.  So how do you restore that relationship ?  Two ways, either reign in the I&B or lengthen the golf course.

That's the sad reality.


Pat

Perhaps you are correct, but architectural intent can only go so far in terms of which players are effected.  I certainly can't prove it, nor do I wish to, but I have long thought that perhaps half (and that would be a large number) the bunkers on a course should be "in play" for any particular golfer on any given day.  If the bunkering is done well, the "in play" bunkers should change depending on season and weather.  Because of distance it may be the case that where one bunker is no longer in play that another one will be ad perhaps that is all we can expect so far as architectural intent is concerned.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2011, 09:50:47 AM »

Quote
Three stats stand out:

> 4.6 yards increase on the US PGA Tour from June 2010 to June 2011, the largest increase since 2003

.............................


For whatever it's worth the year-end 2010 to September 2011 numbers say the increase is a slightly more modest 3.8 yards.  And from 2007 to today it is an even more modest 2.8 yards.  I suspect that the year over year numbers do not speak to a trend upward yet.

The longest hitter's number year-over-year is not trending anywhere it appears.

If you look at the pre-2000 numbers there was a trend upwards prior to the pro-v phenomenon.  If that trend had continued through fitness, driver technology and agronomic practices, etc with no new ball technology, then the average tour distance now would be around 275 yards rather than 290.

In any event, the driver distance genie was out of the bottle 10 years ago.  It doesn't seem appreciably more out of the bottle now than 10 years ago.  Perhaps all we're seeing is more long bombers learning how to play the rest of the game and sticking around the tour longer.

I'm curious what those that want the ball rolled back 10% to corral driver distance think the impact will be on Mickelson et al hitting 7 irons 210 yards.






Brian,

I'm seeing what looks to be 272'ish average on tour in 2000.  And now it looks to be just over 290. 

That would indicate to me that something is still going on and distance off the tee is in fact appreciably more.  270 vs 290 is the difference between a potential 6 iron approach or an 8 iron..which for these guys is massive.

Furthermore, I think David M made a good point in an earlier post that many of the long hitters aren't even hitting driver off the tee anymore on many hole. They hit 3 woods and hybrids for control....and they are still poking it out there 290ish

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2011, 10:11:07 AM »
I think the analysis is after the jump to 2 piece balls through the '01 and '02 seasons is the deal. the 2003 to 2011 differential is minimal.

How many PGA Tour players played your course this year?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driver Distance Increases and its affect on our courses
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2011, 10:25:24 AM »
I think the analysis is after the jump to 2 piece balls through the '01 and '02 seasons is the deal. the 2003 to 2011 differential is minimal.

How many PGA Tour players played your course this year?

As far as I know none have played my course this year. However, being a PGA Tour player does not give you exclusive rights to long driving. I find it disconcerting to sit in the grill and overhear the next table talking about all the par 4s they have driven on our course including a 380 yarder.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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