[Neil_Crafter]

Those architects who attended the World Forum on Golf Architecture at St Andrews in March 2010 would have heard the presentation by the R&A on distance and the spirited defence put up by architect/USGA man Steve Smyers. According to these bodies there is no problem - and apparently never has been.

Well recent statistics I saw in the latest Australian Golf Digest (taken from US Golf Digest) throw a different light on the defence from the R&A and USGA.

Three stats stand out:

> 4.6 yards increase on the US PGA Tour from June 2010 to June 2011, the largest increase since 2003

> 36% increase in the percentage of 320 yard plus drives on the PGA Tour versus last year

> A staggering 71% increase in the number of LPGA players averaging 250 yards or more off the tee so far in 2011 versus 2010.

The stats belie the official head in the sand position.

[Tom_Doak]

Neil:

Please just move along.  There is nothing happening here! 

Really, though, four yards is not much of a difference.  It's the 25 yards they lost in the late 90's - early 2000's that was the cat out of the bag ... but they can't go back and re-examine that, they've got to put it behind them and move forward.  Classic status quo b.s.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neil,

What's interesting about this topic/thread is that for the last week many in Northern NJ have been discussing how the pros decimated Plainfield, long regarded as a difficult golf course.

I won't say that Plainfield was equated with the Maginot Line, but, I know many golfers in the Northern NJ area who were shocked by the scores.

Today I was playing with a fellow who's a 4 handicap, who's in his 60's and we were discussing how, when you swung hard with the old equipment, you risked hitting your ball off the planet.

In particular, the 18th hole at Mountain Ridge entered the discussion.  It's a semi-long, uphill par 4, dogleg right, with a large tree at the right elbow.

It's a very, very difficult hole for me and most of my peers, but, for golfers who routinely drive the ball 300, it's not an overly difficult hole.

I made the statement that you can't defend scoring vis a vis yardage unless you go completely bonkers.

500 yard par 4's were unreachable, not that long ago.

But, it's not just that they were unreachable, it's that the golfer was forced to INTEGRATE with the features the architect intended him to integrate with, be it bunkers, rough, water, etc., etc..  But today, like the Maginot Line, today's young golfer, pro and amateur, just fly it over everything.

I"ve never understood the head in the sand and "everything is OK" stance>

Everything is not OK, courses are getting longer, even at the local level, length is being added, but, it's not enough to defend the course and to force the golfer to interface with those features intended by the architect.

So, today, how is an architect able to forge a tactical challenge that can be met by every level of golfer ?

It's almost impossible, especially if there are land/property constraints.

I knew that neither the R&A or USGA would be at the forefront of dialing back the ball and equipment, but, I had hoped that Augusta, with their incredible influence and love of the game, and, their direct experience with the problem, would be the leading part of the solution.

I'm still hoping that Augusta will lead the way and develop or adopt a "Tournament/Masters" ball.

What ever happened to the Ohio Golf Associations experiment with a tournament ball ?

End of rant  

[Jim Nugent]

Neil,

What's interesting about this topic/thread is that for the last week many in Northern NJ have been discussing how the pros decimated Plainfield, long regarded as a difficult golf course.

I won't say that Plainfield was equated with the Maginot Line, but, I know many golfers in the Northern NJ area who were shocked by the scores.

Which makes me wonder, again, what they will do to Merion in a few years.  I know we've talked about this, but I'm not sure how the USGA defends the course without tricking up the course, i.e. real high, heavy rough, impossible pin positions, etc.  Can anyone shed light? 

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Yes, you and I were there and heard them say (despite our questioning) exactly that, there is nothing to see here move along and get out of our faces! And the large spike in distances 10 or so years ago was conveniently ignored, despite being the elephant in the room.

While there was "only" a 4% increase last year (and I wish my fees increased annually by the same amount mind you!) the staggering figures to me are the large increases at the long end of town in the number of players on both tours over those 'threshold' marks of 320 and 250 yards.

Pat and Jim
Thanks for your take on this too.

[Tom_Doak]

Which makes me wonder, again, what they will do to Merion in a few years.  I know we've talked about this, but I'm not sure how the USGA defends the course without tricking up the course, i.e. real high, heavy rough, impossible pin positions, etc.  Can anyone shed light? 

Jim:

The USGA has defended par with real high, heavy rough, impossible pin positions, etc., for 37 years, ever since Winged Foot in 1974.  Why would Merion in 2013 be any different just because it's shorter?

[Mike_Clayton]

Neil,

I think that is the exact point they miss. It's not the actual distance averages (which are staggering) but the numbers of players who can drive that far.
We have a huge problem now but in thirty years it is going to be a joke how many players will be averaging 330.You will have to if you hope to compete. I know it's only a small part of the game but the best courses were designed in part to test the elite.

The other thing is that we will never see a truly great driver of the ball again - like Norman or Woosnam or Nicklaus - because pretty much everyone who plays is a great driver. The equipment makes it so easy to hit good drives - the exact same drives Norman hit but with wood and balata.
To be great you have to be able demonstrate skills the majority don't have and you just don't see those truly distinguishing characteristics now.It's the same with the long irons. Can't hit that high 220 yard three iron?? - just buy a hybrid.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike (and Neil):

I'm not sure if you are seeing cause, or effect.

There were plenty of guys years ago who hit the ball a long way.  But none of them could survive on Tour, because they couldn't hit it straight enough to compete.

Now that it's easier to hit the ball long and straight, the longer hitters dominate, and it's the short straight hitters who can't compete and fall off the Tour -- and as they fall off, the distance averages go UP.

[Mike_Clayton]

Tom,

That is true about the short hitters being driven off the tour but the tour has always been dominated by the most powerful players - Hogan Snead,Palmer,Nicklaus, Weiskopf,Watson, Ballesteros, Norman, Woods (who is the most crooked of all the great players) They survived because they were the rare breed who could hit long and keep it inside the course.
Most, if not all of those players were massive hitters in their day.
There were also players - Trevino,Thomson and Player for example - who could compete with a completely different skill set.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Neil

The R&A are not only slow but very deaf too. If you have a message it needs men like you and Tom plus others to stand up in front of them totally united and force the issue.

Many complain about my approach but you must be repetitive, even then a single voice from the wilderness does not make much of an impact.

Get a group of likeminded who are willing to be counted, then challenge The R&A.

They get away with many things because many are scared of them, I am not I have seen first-hand there total incompetence at time and am surprised by their very poor record  when it come to the game and our courses.

I would even raise the issue that if they can’t react for the good of the game, then why should they be taken seriously and should they be in charge.

It’s all down to commitment, this time it’s down to you to get a solid group together and just insist that they reconsider the issue.

The real question, do we have men of steel who care enough to stand united, I fear that will be your hardest battle, because once you have, then the R&A WILL change if for no other reason than to question their right to continuing governing.

Melvyn

PS You know my position, but you may not want me on-board due to my approach, but remember silence never gets you anywhere.

[Neil_Crafter]

Melvyn
The R&A and the USGA can safely ignore us architects as we have little - if any - clout. The essence of futility I'm afraid.

The combination of the ball and the drivers, along with bigger, fitter & stronger players will see the continuation of the increases such as seen this year. While the ruling bodies just tinker around the edges of the problem  and don't actually admit there is a problem that needs solving then there is no need for them to make any changes.

[Steve Kline]

I have been at Kingsley this weekend playing a number of rounds. I have played the blue tees (about 6200 yards I think), the gold tees (arpund 6900 yards) and I played with one foot almost in the rough on the back tee of every hole. I shot 71, 73, 69 , respectively. Also, In the round I played from the tips of the tips I played a match against Tim Bert and his friend Jason were they played from the front of the fronts.we found that everyone shot the same roughly the same score from all the tees because the short game still accounts for a large percentage of the shots. Talking at dinner, we felt that for non-tour players the distamce doesn't really matter - unless we get to some crazy extreme - because the short game is where you score. Moving up a set of tees does not help you make more 10 footers. So to increase the difficulty of the course you need more sloped greens, firmer greens and more difficult pin positions.

Based on our thoughts and experience at Kingsley and comments from this year's US Am about even a 7800 yard course not being long it seems that changing the distance on the course does not affect the scores that elite players shoot either. To make things difficult for the elite players is the same formula as for us - more sloped greens, firmer greens, and more diffficult pon positions. However for the top player their short games are so good they can overcome these obstacles too. So, making things difficult for the elite player becomes very, very hard.

I think slowing greens down but adding much more slope to greens would make things harder. Putting is relatively easy when the greens are fast, smooth, and nothing inside 6 feet breaks. It is much harder to make a six footer when it breaks a foot.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Neil

Never give up, do so and you are lost.

The R&A again have got it wrong - suggest that every course that you and others extend/modif you get the Customer to bill The R&A. They will of course not pay but it will show them the extent of the problem - a worthwhile exercise I would have thought.
They then might just get the message but you have to play your part to get change - no play no change - the ball is in your court

Melvyn

[Kalen Braley]

I did a little research and found out the following:

The top 15 players on the Fedex Cup list as of today with their respective rank on tour for driving distance:

1)  Dustin Johnson - 4th
2)  Matt Kuchar - 136th
3)  Nick Watney - 21st
4)  Webb Simpson - 36th
5)  Luke Donald - 163rd - Also World #1
6)  Brandt Snedecker - 130th
7)  Steve Stricker - 122nd
 Vijay Singh - 71st
9)  KJ Choi - 133rd
10)  Gary Woodland - 5th
11)  Phil Mickelson - 23rd
12)  Jonathon Bryd - 105th
13)  Mark Wilson - 149th
14)  Keegan Bradley - 18th
15)  Jason Day - 16th

Do the long bombers really own the tour?  Or is this just a myth?  The best player in the world is very short off the tee by PGATour standards....

[Niall C]

Steve

Interesting post. In it you state that "moving up a set of tees does not help you make more 10 footers". Surely the point is that the tee you play for is likely to mean whether you have a 10 footer or a 25 footer. For example I generally fancy my chances of getting up and down in two from 70 or 80 yards in but from 140 yards out I'm just happy to hit the green.

Niall

[Mike_Clayton]

Without looking I will bet that Luke Donald is longer than Tom Weiskopf in his prime.
He may be 'short' (there are no short hitters out there) but I think it's a mistake to look at such small samples of tour players.

The issues is the way the  courses play and none play anywhere near the way their great architects envisaged - and it is going to be a horror story in 30 years if it is left unchecked.
It's a horror story now - and the tour in America and Europe answer the question with long rough and narrow fairways and as night follows day, so many just follow.
We played at Woburn this week and that could be a fantastic course if they understood Woking and Royal Melbourne (for example) and eliminated the rough and any trees that interfere with the golf
But you know the answer to the question is 'that would make the course too easy'

[Bill_McBride]

I was shocked to see that Dustin Johnson averaged around 350 for three consecutive holes yesterday at Boston!   And I guess Bubba Watson is equally long. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Melvyn... You are correct...

Neil, if we take the attitude that it is an exercise in futility, then we are done for... These things have to start somewhere... At the EIGCA meet in Germany this May, graduate Nick Norton stood up and said that architects have a responsibility to drive this issue hard because no one else will... The response was much as you stated but we know that there are many players out there who feel that the equipment has gone too far... The trick is to bring them along with the cause and that isn't an easy thing when it means speaking out against the companies / sponsors that pay their wages...

But culture changes have to start somewhere... They always look like an exercise in futility at the start...

We can talk about it or do something about it... I'm as guilty as anyone of doing the former and not the latter...

[Jerry Kluger]

Kalen: Your stats are interesting but your analysis is too simple.  Dustin Johnson was hitting wedge into most of the par 4s but the shorter hitters were hitting 8 irons which really isn't that much of a difference.  The shorter hitters could still reach the par 5s in 2.    I agree with Pat that ANGC is the place where changes have to be made since they own the venue just like they do in baseball where they won't let the players force them to build new stadiums.  With all that being said I still go back to my solution:  no medal headed drivers and fairway woods and no more hybrids and no graphite shafts.  Let's see them hit the wood drivers with steel shafts and see what happens to their distance and accuracy.  Let's go back to making them hit 2 irons instead of hybrids.  I don't care what ball they're playing, the game will look vastly different for the very best players.   

[Garland Bayley]

Jerry,

I have to respectively disagree with your analysis. You want to degrade the clubs, when it is the ball that is the problem. The solution is see is to regulate the ball by specifying spin. Take the typical two piece ball. Plot the line given by the spin rate from each loft. Determine the slope of that line. Legislate that all balls must not create a slope of a higher gradient.

Before the modern ball, you had to use a very low lofted driver to get significant distance. With the low lofted driver the side spin had a good chance of dominating over the back spin, resulting in players having to swing in control. With the modern ball the lofts on the drivers have all gone up, increasing the ratio of back spin to side spin. Furthermore just the fact that the spin is much less, players can swing with less control. So as far as metal drivers are concerned, I have no problem with them if they would regulate them to have the same COR as wood drivers. I doubt the size makes much difference, because with a spinning ball you have to hit it on the "screws" to get the ball to perform as you desire.

[DMoriarty]

Kalen,

The shortcoming of your analysis is that even the "short" hitters are long hitters.

According to the PGA Tour Driving distance stats, Matt Kuchar, (136th) averages about 290 yards off the tee.   In 1991 the 136th longest driver on tour hit it about 256.  Kuchar averages longer drives  than did the tour leader - John Daly - in 1991.  Matt Kuchar today hits it longer than did John Daly in 1991.

Luke Donald (163rd) averages 282 yards off the tee..  In 1991 the 163th longest driver hit it about 253.   Greg Norman was second that year at at 282 yards.   Luke Donald averages the same as Greg Norman did 20 years ago.  He drives it further than did Fred Couples (+2) and Davis Love (+10).  He drives it a lot further than short hitters like Loren Roberts (+31) and Hale Irwin (+35)

John Daly in 1991 vs.  J.B. Holmes 2011?  Holmes average is just shy of 30 yards further (288.9 yards. vs. 318.4 yards.)
_______________________________________________

Another potential issue with the stats today is that the technology is so far beyond the courses that oftentimes these guys don't need driver, even on the "driver" holes.  Or when they do hit driver, they bunt it 290-300.  If this is the case, the stats won't fully reflect the problem.

[Neil_Crafter]

Ally and Melvyn
I take your points, but if I was apathetic about this issue I wouldn't have started this thread. I am not apathetic but perhaps a realist.

David
Nice analysis comparing the driving distances from 20 years ago. Enlightening, certainly to see that Luke Donald hits it as far as Norman did in his prime. Enough said.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally and Melvyn
I take your points, but if I was apathetic about this issue I wouldn't have started this thread. I am not apathetic but perhaps a realist.

David
Nice analysis comparing the driving distances from 20 years ago. Enlightening, certainly to see that Luke Donald hits it as far as Norman did in his prime. Enough said.

Neil, I'm not suggesting you are... But if architects don't start the ball rolling then who will?... If its achievable, then it is realistic... If it is not, we may as well stop talking about it...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Neil

WE all must do what we feel we must do.

Yet I am reminded about the guys that moan like hell about the state of the Government but come the time for the new elections, refuses to vote. I feel strongly that if you are not willing to vote you have no right to complain about the new policies as you have done zero to try and influence them. No vote is wasted for no other reason that you have done your best by voting for what you believe in, this time others just do not agree, does not make you wrong. So do not let your commitment wain, what goes around comes around.

Apathy is the reason we have the problems we do. Dislike me, and/or what I say, do not read my comments, but at least I am trying to get things into the open to chat about, to make people aware of the consequences,  to be fully aware of the facts as possible.

In the end you are in or out, sitting on the fence is not a choice, that’s what has caused much of the problems in golf.

You decide, no one else can. Oh yes Commitment can cost at times, are you willing to also pay that price?

Melvyn

[Kalen Braley]

David and others,

I would certainly agree with your points.  I was only trying to point out that its a bit of a myth myth that the "long bombers" on tour are the ones dominating the tour, even though all of these guys are long by standards set 30 years ago.

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