[Kalen Braley]

Jack Nicklaus is going to be setting up 12 hole rounds to be played at Muirfield Village with holes that are 8 inches in diameter.  The hope is to attract more people to the game and speed up play.

http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/6917877/jack-nicklaus-hosting-events-attrract-more-golfers-game

I know this concept isn't new, but what does the tree house think in that its coming from Jack N who has high visibility?

[PThomas]

dumb...it's not golf...Jack should maybe build some easier courses with a set of tees at 4500 or so

[Bruce Wellmon]

Unless an existing course comes back to the clubhouse at 6 hole intervals, I don't see how this works logistically.
One course in SC has this theme, but the clubhouse is at hole #1 tee. The turnhouse is at hole 6 green, hole 7 tee, hole 12 green and hole 13 tee. So unless you start at the turnhouse, you have to cart back to the clubhouse or play all 18. Not a bad idea, but execution?
From the Cliffs website...........
Keowee Springs Course / Fazio 

Revered golf architect Tom Fazio designed the unique layout of The Keowee Springs golf course.  Returning to The Clubhouse or The Turnhouse at six-hole intervals, this golf course is one of the most versatile designs in Fazio’s wide repertoire of award-winning courses.   

[Anthony Gray]

  The sewer pipes in Ohio are 8 inches.

  Anthony

 

[jeffwarne]

Why not play 4.5 holes with 18 inch cups?

sort've like 6 minute abs.....

[JMEvensky]

I wonder if the guys who write dues checks every month are thrilled to have gotten drafted into this army.

[George Pazin]

Why not play 4.5 holes with 18 inch cups?

sort've like 6 minute abs.....

Nobody works out for 6 minutes! 6 MINUTES?

-----

Nothing like simplifying the one part of the game even lousy golfers can do quickly. I guess the upside is not having to watch a guy go through his preshot routine for a tap-in.

[Mark Johnson]

The irony is that for the typical golfer the large cups dont help much, while it is a HUGE edge for the single digit golfer.

While I appreciate the thought, my thoughts are the following are still the most appropriate way to grow the game.

- Change the slow play culture; if all course would enforce four hours or bust, this problem would be solved in 2 years
- Play from the appropriate tees and enforce the policy;  when i lived in houston, rangers would checkyour handicap before they would let you play the back tees;  happened on at least 4 courses;  never seen this up north.
- Encourage picking up after a quadruple bogey or worse
- Develop more "brown" cheaper to operate courses

[PThomas]

maybe Jack can give everyone some of Arnie's illegal drivers and Polara balls on the first tee too

[Peter Pallotta]

Kalen - I take a different view, mostly because (I admit) I'm a big fan of JNs. I think one of his most admirable qualities is that he's always tried throughout his career to "do the right thing" - whether as a golfer/sportsman, as a member of his community (through charity work), as a quality golf course designer (bringing literally of hundreds of courses on line for people to play), and as a protector of the game and its history and great qualities (re runaway technology). I'm not sure this idea will accomplish much, but I applaud him for trying to highlight a) how hard the game is for most average players, and wanting to mitigate that, and b) the fact that slow play doesn't help the situation.  I know someone will say that he could do more by designing easier/more strategic courses -- but it seems to me he has done plenty in the resort-course-with-many-sets-of-tees-world...and I for one am not going to criticize him for choosing that route (to easier golf courses) rather than the one we tend to prefer around here.

Peter

[Garland Bayley]

Jack Nicklaus read my lips.

IT'S THE PONDS, STUPID!

Anyone can putt.

[A.G._Crockett]

Kalen - I take a different view, mostly because (I admit) I'm a big fan of JNs. I think one of his most admirable qualities is that he's always tried throughout his career to "do the right thing" - whether as a golfer/sportsman, as a member of his community (through charity work), as a quality golf course designer (bringing literally of hundreds of courses on line for people to play), and as a protector of the game and its history and great qualities (re runaway technology). I'm not sure this idea will accomplish much, but I applaud him for trying to highlight a) how hard the game is for most average players, and wanting to mitigate that, and b) the fact that slow play doesn't help the situation.  I know someone will say that he could do more by designing easier/more strategic courses -- but it seems to me he has done plenty in the resort-course-with-many-sets-of-tees-world...and I for one am not going to criticize him for choosing that route (to easier golf courses) rather than the one we tend to prefer around here.

Peter

Peter,
I'll take the opposite view, and hope that I am very wrong about JN.  

This is a man who has, arguably, done as much to slow the pace of golf AND make golf courses more costly and difficult than any other single individual I can think of.  Singlehandly, his slow/difficult karma is overwhelming.  I also listened to him rant about Ping grooves while during color commentary during the lawsuit while he was a competitor of Karsten in the club business and getting his head handed to him.  I don't think he is particularly known for his altruism in general, and that is certainly true when it comes to the business of golf.  Year after year in the Skins Game, his selected charity was some sort of junior golf foundation, while others designated St. Jude's, or Save the Children, or Unicef, or whatever.

I'll be cynical and say that if he is truly hoping to speed up golf and bring in new players, he has gone to a new pulpit for his own best interests first and foremost.  Whether he is hoping to build more courses or sell more equipment or both, I'll tend to believe that he is in it for himself and that the good of the game (whatever that might mean) is just along for the ride.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Peter Pallotta]

AG - I'm sure glad you use your powers for good instead of evil...because with that kind of rabble-rousing rhetoric at your disposal, you could get people to believe anything!! 

Seriously, though - I do understand your pov, i.e. JN DID play slowly, DOES build expensive courses, and IS a competitive businessman. I don't "understand" any of that, i.e. I play quickly, I'm broke, and the only person I want to compete against is myself (and even then, I try to take it easy).  But I do think that, within his own context/by his own lights, JN does WANT to do the right thing, and has tried to do that...and perhaps that's the most I should expect from people.

Anyway - I didn't mean to sidetrack Kalen's thread.  Garland's funny post is probably also TRUE...

Hope you and yours are well, and on the mend

Peter

[Kalen Braley]

Good responses so far...

Peter you are right on track.  After all, an essential component to this is that someone of Jack's influence is advocating this and actually putting it into play.  I guess so far I can see both sides.  Certainly no doubt Jack has contributed to the problem over the years.

But on the other hand, maybe he's seen the light and this is one small way he's trying to give back where he can and fix some wrongs.

P.S.  As one who loves putting probably the most than any other part of the game, a massive cup sounds delightful.  I could one putt everything!!  

[Steve Wilson]

Curiously, Gene Sarazen had the 8" cup idea back in the 30s.  His notion was the to reward the better ball striker by making balls hit 'close' to the hole virtually certain birdies.  His reasoning would square would square with Mark Johnson's post "The irony is that for the typical golfer the large cups dont help much, while it is a HUGE edge for the single digit golfer." 

Doubtless playing 12 holes instead of 18 would speed up the round, but I don't think it would necessarily speed up play.  Now if courses were shorter and wider and holes were larger play might speed up, but wouldn't this be a just a variant bifurcation along the lines of having a reduced distance ball?

[Mark Johnson]

The only gimmick I kinda like is having two pins on a green. An easy one on front and more challenging one elsewhere.

[Keith OHalloran]

Will they have carts? Not sure I want to walk all 12 .

[Sam Morrow]

Why don't they do this at a public course to attract more players to the game? Is Jack needing to get more member at Murifield Village? I don't know the stats out there but I'm sure it cost a large sum of money to be a member out there.

[Randy Thompson]

Will they have carts? Not sure I want to walk all 12 .

LMAO  Que Bueno!

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't get the hate when the real deal of this outing is the penalty for slow play.  This is from the article that you guys did not bother to read.

"To encourage faster play, participants are required to complete the round in 2˝ hours. They will be penalized one stroke for every five minutes over the allotted time."

[Phil Benedict]

I don't get the hate when the real deal of this outing is the penalty for slow play.  This is from the article that you guys did not bother to read.

"To encourage faster play, participants are required to complete the round in 2˝ hours. They will be penalized one stroke for every five minutes over the allotted time."

Pretty hard to miss the irony of Jack Nicklaus instituting penalties for slow play. 

[Bruce Katona]

I tried to post this earlier but it went away into cyberspace.

The tree house on the site bemowns slow play and the lack of retaining or attracting new play to the game of golf.  JN, who will generate media attention, reintroduces an old proposal to potentially speed up play (especially here in the USA where putting out is necessay to make a score to log in for the USGA Handicap - another topic unto itself).  Cost is minimal to attempt the idea, media attention is attracted, and players give it a go.  If the idea works, JN receievs some credit, facility operators potentially see an increase in revenue as round speed increases ( more people potentially means more $) and the customer is happy not to endure the 5+ hour slog of a weekend round.  WIN, Win, Win all around.

If the idea is a bust, it had its 15 minutes of fame and goes back in the closet for another 30 years.  JN will occasionally be asked about it in future interviews and can opine on the concept.

Business people take risks in exchange for upside return.  There is little downside to JN attempting this and a large upside position if rounds can be increased. 

Some of thre posters here are eginning to sound like politicians...."you mean businessman you risk capital should actually have a chance to make a profit from their investment"....

[Ted Cahill]

The irony is that for the typical golfer the large cups dont help much, while it is a HUGE edge for the single digit golfer.

While I appreciate the thought, my thoughts are the following are still the most appropriate way to grow the game.

- Change the slow play culture; if all course would enforce four hours or bust, this problem would be solved in 2 years
- Play from the appropriate tees and enforce the policy;  when i lived in houston, rangers would checkyour handicap before they would let you play the back tees;  happened on at least 4 courses;  never seen this up north.
- Encourage picking up after a quadruple bogey or worse
- Develop more "brown" cheaper to operate courses

I agree with Mark's prescriptions.  My thoughts:  mitigating slow play is talked about alot as a vehicle to improve participation.  OK- but let's also improve the game for those of us who do play, are not going to give up the sport yet have to have our rounds made less enjoyable by very correctable behavior that contributes to slow play.  I am rooting for the public access course (therefor, with income/customers at risk) to implement a polite, but firm (and vigorously enforced) slow play policy that hits most of the points Mark mentioned.  I strongly believe the word would spread quickly that X course moves you around in 4 hours or less and local golfers would flock to this course and it's owners would be rewarded with more rounds played.

It seems like courses, understandably, are operating on such thin margains and are very anxious of scaring away the golfers who would be slighted by being told to move it along and stop playing at their course.  I believe these course operators are being short sighted in attempting to "hold on" to the slow player/prickly golfers and therefor losing the "unplayed" rounds by folks who want to get done under 4 hours- figure they can't- and then stay home.  The possible benefit of the recession in the golf industry is that it creates conditions where owners get to a point where they are more willing to try new things-  and old, calcified ways begin to change.  Personally, given the choice between a Doak 7 with a reputation of slow play and a Doak 3 with a brisk play rep- I'd play the Doak 3 nine times out of ten.  

[John Kavanaugh]

There was a recent thread about this same type of event, minus the fast play incentives, at Pine Needles.  Sounds like everyone loved it.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47579.0.html

[George Pazin]

I tried to post this earlier but it went away into cyberspace.

The tree house on the site bemowns slow play and the lack of retaining or attracting new play to the game of golf.  JN, who will generate media attention, reintroduces an old proposal to potentially speed up play (especially here in the USA where putting out is necessay to make a score to log in for the USGA Handicap - another topic unto itself).  Cost is minimal to attempt the idea, media attention is attracted, and players give it a go.  If the idea works, JN receievs some credit, facility operators potentially see an increase in revenue as round speed increases ( more people potentially means more $) and the customer is happy not to endure the 5+ hour slog of a weekend round.  WIN, Win, Win all around.

If the idea is a bust, it had its 15 minutes of fame and goes back in the closet for another 30 years.  JN will occasionally be asked about it in future interviews and can opine on the concept.

Business people take risks in exchange for upside return.  There is little downside to JN attempting this and a large upside position if rounds can be increased. 

Some of thre posters here are eginning to sound like politicians...."you mean businessman you risk capital should actually have a chance to make a profit from their investment"....

Can't speak for others, but the idea proposed reminds me of the expression "Nero fiddled while Rome burned". Some of us don't like the idea of Rome burning.

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