[RDecker]

First let me apologize if this topic is redundant for this site but as a relative newcomer I discover new golf course
information all the time.  While watching the Sony Open this weekend I discovered that the Waialae C.C. was in
fact a Seth Raynor design and there before my eyes was a lovely looking Redan on network TV(#17).  Anyway
I was wondering if you folks might know more about the course.  I'm sure it has been renovated, but by who and
when?  Is this the oldest course in Hawaii?...I never would have expected to see Raynor design in such an unexpected location.

[ChipOat]

Dear Mr. RDecker,

Wailae is one of 2 Seth Raynor courses in Hawai'i - the other being Mid-Pacific (aka Mid-Pac).  The oldest course in the islands is, I believe, Oahu CC which might be the best course on "hilly" property I've ever played.

Don't know who renovated Wailae but it was originally built by the old Moana hotel (now the Sheraton Moana Surfrider) - not sure when it became a private club.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Chipcoat,
   I believe that Rick Smith did the renovation at Wailae...bunkers and greens several years ago.

[SPDB]

I only tuned in for a minute on Thurs. night, but I heard Ian B-F. mentioning a whole host of good Raynor designs, which he said don't get their due - CC of Fairfield, Creek, Fisher's Island.

As for Waialea, how much Raynor is left there? Besides the Redan hole you mentioned, are there other trademark Raynor holes there? Hard to imagine a Raynor design without a Biarritz or a road hole, are these present in the current design?

[ChipOat]

The course is too flat to really "be" a classic Rayner/MacDonald layout.  East coast semi-example: the 2nd at Fisher's Island has a basic Redan design but the property (at that point) doesn't allow for a "real" Redan.

[George Bahto]

The original Raynor concept for the course had outstanding bunkering throughout and had all the CB, Raynor, Banks "standard" classic designs.

I doubt if all the hazards were ever built and course has been modified often I fear. ......... interesting though, it's basic design is good enuf for the tour

This course and Mid-Pac were layed out just about a month before he died in early Jan 1926. Cypress Point was layed out a month before that.

Raynor was very ill and had been trying to regain strength in the warmer climates.

[Rich_Goodale]

chipoat

I played Waialae in h late 70's when I had a client who was a member.  As you say, it's as flat as a pancake, but still quite an oasis, still being so close to the tackiness of Waikiki.  It abutted onto what was then the Kahala Hilton, which was, at the time, the finest hotel I had ever stayed at (and I had a pretty good top 100 list of hotels worldwide in 1979!).  How does this square with your recolledtion of the "Sheraton Moana" which, from its name, I would assume was more towards the center of the town (my client owned the Ala Moana shopping center)?

All that being said, a much kinder, gentler sort of Hawaiian golf course than those that have been built in the interim for the more money than sense brigade.  Also, so much kinder and gentler than what I imagine Yale to be (or have been).......

Cheers

Rich

[Russell (Guest)]

The Waialae course has a few Raynor imprints left while the Mid-Pacific course has more recognizable features. The 17th (member's 8th) at Waialae is a pretty flat redan with the prevailing trades at the golfer's back. Raynor's ode to Yale is the 4th (member's 13th), a long (215 from the tips) par 3 that plays into the prevailing wind. the green is about 50 yards deep with a 3 foot deep swale in the middle.

The renovations done by Rick Smith seems to have been more about adding cartpaths on both sides of the fairways than altering the course. He lengthened the 2nd (member's 11th) by inserting a new set of tees to put the water in play on the left. Previously, the hole could be reached by Andy Bean with a 3 wood. this year it played 2nd hardest.

I believe he also did the renovations to Mid-Pacific. The 4th is a classic redan that allows the golfer to ride the wind with a draw to get to the back left pin position. The 5th is now a par 5 to an island green. I believe Raynor designed the island green as a one-shotter. the back nine features a lot more hills with the 12th, a 470+ Par 5 featuring some beautiful new bunkering in the old Thomas style. I hear many of the member's do not like it since it is incongruent with the bunkeing on the rest of the course. I think they should change the rest of the bunkers.

Overall, both courses did not feature outstanding topography to work with. The beauty in the design is how he played the wind and the rhythm he set up in the course. Birdies can be had in the first few holes of each course, but hold onto your hat on the back nine.

[moth]

Correction: The renovations at Mid-Pac were by Robin Nelson.

[ChipOat]

Rich Goodale

The Kahala Hilton is now the Kahala Mandarin and an even finer hotel than you remember.  The old Moana and Royal Hawaiian hotels are located on the beach in Waikiki (not quite in town) and were originally owned by the big steamship company (Matson, I think) as destination resorts.  It was the Matson people that commissioned Raynor to design a course at Kahala for their hotel guests as Waikiki was a swamp in the 1920's (it's been called worse in recent years).

Interestingly, the best preserved "classic" course in Hawaii is Oahu CC, which is also the oldest (the architect escapes me at the moment).  It's a really good layout with excellent greens on a very difficult piece of property (hilly) on which to build good golf holes.  Straight up and (especially) straight down usually don't make for good terrain but OCC is one fine course.  The other good older layout there is Kaneohe Clipper at the Marine Corps base on the other side of Oahu.  As related on this thread, Mid Pac is no slouch, either.  I'd rate all 3 of these over Waialae although none of them have the space to hold a tournament like the SONY.

Re: the post war, post boom courses.  Crenshaw/Coore's Plantation course and even RTJ's Mauna Kea are really good, but nobody would ever call them subtle.  My favorite is Nicklaus' Manele Bay course on Lanai.  Fabulous Pebble Beach-like views and some darn good holes, as well.

The Ala Moana Center has changed hands a couple of times - I think one of the REITs owns it now.  In the late 1970's, I'm guessing the owner (your client) was one of the old Hawaiian land trusts - am I correct?

FYI, you'll find me listed in your RDGC directory (page 100 of the 2002 edition).  Let me know if you're coming East - Yale is but one of many fine MacDonald/Raynor/Banks creations around here that are worth a look.  Perhaps we can persuade George Bahto (he's doing a book on them) to join us.

Regards,
Chip Oat

[Rich_Goodale]

Chip

Thanks for hte info.  My "Wailae" client worked for Dillingham, which was a conglomerate that owned Ala Moana and then spun it off into a REIT, partly baswed on some of the work I did.  Matson was also a big client, but those guys worked to hard to ever get out on the golf course.  There were a few old geezers in the company, so maybe I touched the hand of someone who touched the hand of the great Raynor......

NYC is off my radar screen for a while (used up far too many brownie points in my visit there in October), but thanks for the offer.  You've got my address out here in Cal.  Please call if you get out here.  If you are a true Raynorhead (which I am not) I can probably get you a game with the guy who's writing George's book with him.

[ChipOat]

Rich Goodale:

Thanks for the reply - I don't get to Hawai'i on business anymore so this site's got my pre-war golf architecture exposure out there for the foreseeable future.

I can handle the NYC chits next time.  In fact, I'd welcome the excuse.

Ciao

[Tommy_Naccarato]

How can you guys talk abotu the Ala Moana Mall and not mention Patty's Chinese Kitchen?

[Rich_Goodale]

So Tommy

Did Raynor eat there?  Did the arrangement of the chicken salad inspire the surroundings that Tom Doak created for the 11th green at Pacific Dunes?  Is there any other reason why we should go there?  Surely not just for the food........

[Doug_Nickels]

The original layout by Raynor/Banks was changed when condos were added along the ocean. Parts of the back nine at the Sony (members front nine) was added at that time.  For those trivia buffs - Jack Lord lived in one of condos.
I do know that the greens were mapped in detail (3" contours) in 1991 before renovation work by Desmond Muirhead Inc. (for whom I worked at the time). At that time the members #13 was a 194 yard par 3 with a green  160 feet in length and a little less than 60 feet wide.  There was a distinct swale in the middle with the back level 2 feet higher.  The old photos show the bunkers with grass all the way down the slopes to a flat bottom.  The club (at that time) was not interested in restoring the look of the bunkers.  They perceived the "Waialae Look" as high flashed sand bunkers.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

No rich, Raynor didn't eat there, and yes it has nothing to do with the post, but since you brought it up, did Raynor ever visit Ala Moana Mall?

I'm sure your resource can come to some conclusion or closure with that.

BTW-the only reason I mentioned it was because Patty's Chinese Kitchen seemed to be a pretty popular local's spot at the mall the three times I have been there.

[Rich_Goodale]

Tommy

My guess is that the Ala Moana mall did not exist when Raynor was there.  It is fascinating to think of what it must have been like for the guy to get our there in the Roaring 20's, with no air service and Duke Whatshisname carrying his 15 foot long, 150 pound surfboard out into the pristine sea.  We are so spoiled, and yet so bereft of the possibilities of experience that Raynor and his pals had in those old days.  Someday, even Patty might well be gone and replaced by yet another Starbucks.......

[SPDB]

More for the trivia buffs:

I think I remember reading somewhere that scenes from the film "From Here to Eternity" were filmed on the beach below the course.

[THuckaby2]

EUREKA!

Finally something besides University of Santa Clara basketball on which I can fill in Rich Goodale:

Duke KAHANAMOKU.

I know this from years of watching the "Duke Kahanamoku Surfing Classic" on Wide World of Sports.  My brother and I would imitate Duke and repeat his name for weeks after each watching....

Great thoughts re years gone by....

TH

[JakaB]

Is this the most butcherd classic design on the PGA Tour?...I told a friend just two days ago before I read this thread that he didn't miss anything by not watching the tournament because the course was so boring...I used to not care about this type of crap until uze guys enlightend me but will I have the pleasure to see any architects work missing more from an existing course than Raynor's was missing from this one.


I just edited a smiley face away...those things are like....well my wife knows.

[ChipOat]

To: All

Sounds like the Waialae of today bears little resemblance to what Raynor had in mind - perhaps Mid Pac and Oahu CC are better bets for classic golf architecture in Paradise.

Although there may have been some scenes in From Here To Eternity shot near Waialae, the secluded beaches on Kauai were the venue for the best known parts of the movie.

FYI, Kauai has some pretty good modern courses (yes, they do exist) besides the much-touted (and, in my opinion, overrated) Prince layout.

Not too many locals actually shop at the Ala Moana Center, but Patty's Chinese Kitchen was, last I heard, still doing OK.

[SPDB]

BarneyF -

Although I'm not certain I agree, there are many who post here (with Shackleford leading the charge) who will tell you that Riviera is the most butchered course on the PGA Tour.

[George Bahto]

I have the original concept drawing of Raynor's for Waialae - I believe if he ever saw what was there now he would ask to have his name taken of the course.

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