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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« on: January 19, 2002, 08:46:43 PM »
I see in Superintendents News that the Links of North Dakota at Red Mike Resort is up for sale.

Has anyone played it? Is it sandy soil based?

How good is it, especially the routing? If you didn't like, why not?

What is its green fee structure?

How much more (or less) remote is it than Wild Horse for instance?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

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Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2002, 09:17:15 PM »
Ran,

The course and RV park (is this the "resort" part?) are being sold at auction in February:

News  
ABSOLUTE AUCTION
2 p.m. February 25th 2002

This beautiful 260± acre golf course and RV Park is selling at auction regardless of price. An additional 240± acre parcel is also being offered absolute. Two additional parcels of lake frontage will also be offered. The auction will take place on Monday, February 25 2002 at 2 p.m.


"Regardless of price"? Hmm, that's unusual, must be a real fire sale.

Haven't played the course (Steven Kay 1995) but it gets very good reviews.  To answer two of your questions--price is $30-35 and this course is located in a VERY remote location, northwestern ND, and is far more remote than Wild Horse if that's possible. Still and all, for the right price, wanna buy it? RJ Daley, maybe we should talk about this...

All The Best,    
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

RJ_Daley

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Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2002, 11:31:57 PM »
http://www.jpking.com/frm_calendar.htm

lets have a mini bid on GCA... :P

Who wants to start?  Assume no maintenance fleet comes with this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Stettner

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2002, 02:26:54 AM »
Ran:
I've played The Links, and it is, by far, one of my favorite golfing experiences. The routing, bunker placement, green contouring and firm and fast conditions make it a much better course than even the Golfweek rankings make it out to be.
The Links is the kind of course we all look for. My father and I played it last July, both of us paying full rate. The total was $76, including a pullcart for my pops. I don't know how many remember, but I posted (with the help of Sir Naccarato) six pictures back in August, challenging CGA'ers to pick the site. The guesses included Scotland, Ireland and Australia, all testimony to the way the course fits the land, land that is absolutely ideal for golf.
If I had the cash, I would buy this course in a heartbeat. I feel much about The Links as RJ Daley does about Wildhorse. It struck a chord in me, one that I will not soon forget.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2002, 03:45:19 AM »
How long is the season?

How many rounds per year?

What's the weather like in the middle of summer?

Is the water free? (pumping costs only)

What is the population base?

Where's the nearest airport?

Assume 3-500k for the maintenance equipment.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"chief sherpa"

Brad Miller

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2002, 04:22:17 AM »
Jeff, might it be possible to post the pic's again. Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Miller

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2002, 04:28:04 AM »
Sorry, RJ's link has pic's.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Miller

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2002, 04:59:26 AM »
Remote, comparing pic's with WH... it's not even close, just look at the bunkers, comment clearly could be bias by RJ's photographic skills :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2002, 06:55:06 AM »
The Links of North Dakota at Red Mike Resort is a place that is clearly remote and if you have the time / passion a place to play. Just keep in mind it is not in the same league as Sand Hills, but a worthy substitute for people who may never get on the C&C layout in Mullen.

I played the course during a summer visit 2 1/2 years ago during the height of summer in August.

The name Red Mike Resort is really not an indicator of what is at the facility. The only resort is the course and a matter-of-fact clubhouse that serves basic goodies. Don't expect Club Med by any stretch. In the distance from the course is Lake Sakakawea which presents a scenic backdrop (although it never comes directly in play) to the sensational isolation you encounter throughout the round.

The course is located in Williston, ND (really the course is about 28 miles east of town off of Hwy 1804 and Williams County Hwy 17A) and the closest other city of note is Regina, the capital city in Saskatchewan / Canada. For those interested Williston does have a McDonald's and a 7-11 store so you won't have to bring your wagon trail!

The course is designed by Stephen Kay (based in Bronxville, NY and the designer of such other good courses as The Architect's Club in Philipsburg, NJ, Blue Heron Pines West in Absecon, NJ, Scotland Run in Williamstown, NJ and the Links at UnionVale near Poughkeepsie, NY, to name just three). Links of ND at Red Mike did finish second in the best new affordable category by GD in 1996 and from what I was told is the only 18-hole course within 90 miles. The season is short given the location and the renown frosty weather. If the course gets more than 25,000 rounds I'd be very surprised. The fees are also quite reasonable as already stated in this thread.

During a conversation with another golfer I was told that all water pipes in the vicinity are placed no less than 3 feet below surface to prevent freezing. Wind chills can be as low as -80 fahrenheit so bring your mittens if you're there in winter! ;D

However, when I played the course in the middle of August the temperature was about 85-90 and absolutely delightful. Given I'm from the northeast the humidity levels were also not a factor. The natural prairie grass colors were brilliantly brown colored in contrast to the closely cropped fairways and greens. The layout has all the appearances of being located in Scotland and Ireland or even eastern Long Island.

The course plays the following distances:

7,092 yards (Tee #5) 73.5 CR / 126 Slope
6,639 yards (Tee #4) 71.5 CR / 122 Slope
6,242 yards (Tee #3) 69.7 CR / 118 Slope

There are also two other forward tee boxes.

In my visit the turf was not as "fast n' firm" as Sand Hills, but you'll need the ground game in your arsenal since the wind blows (almost always often and many times fierce).

Kay did a solid job in keeping the holes from being predictable and only in two particular instances do the holes go in the same general direction (the 1st / 2nd and the 16th / 17th).

The fairways have plenty of room to provide for the general windy conditions and the turf quality was good as were the greens (although they were medium in speed). Anyone going to Red Mike expecting a Sand Hills replica will be in for a let down. That does not mean the course isn't challenging -- it is!!!

Among the better holes is the fine quartert of par-3's they all vary in length and only two of them follow a somewhat same direction. The par-3 8th at 185 yards is really something when the pin is placed dead right. The green sits high on a natural ridge and unless you have total confidence in your iron play you best not miss right if the pin is on that side.

The 17th, is another par-3 and one of the best holes on the course. At 232 yards from Tee #5 you can hit just about any club to get to the green. The hole has a somewhat elevated tee and the green features a somewhat Redan characteristic with a frontal bunker that swallows balls in the same manner as Jaws did in the movies. Too many golf courses fail to provide a long par-3 with teeth -- the 17th at Red Mike has FANGS!

To Kay's credit he also balanced the layout so that not all the long holes play a particular way when the wind comes from a certain direction. The long par-4's (there are four of them at 445 yards or more) are all interesting holes. Tee boxes have also been angled on a number of holes to make the player shape the shot off the tee.

I also liked what Kay did at the 7th, a long par-5 of 560 yards that has a number of wonderfully placed bunkers along the preferred right side of the fairway. The hole clearly looks like it comes from the UK / Ireland. Big hitters can reach the green in two, but the second shot must reach a target that sits slightly above the fairway.

Throughout the round the general pacing of holes is done well. You never get the feeling of predictability or boredom when at Red Mike. I'm not saying this is a place you absolutely have to play (primarily because it is so tough to get to), but the utter tranquility and solid golf will keep you focused. When you finish a round and sit out on the porch by the clubhouse and watch the sun sink slowly in the sky and see the amazing color contrasts the first beer goes down reeeeeaaaallll goooood!

For those interested the phone number I have is (701) 568-2600. I truly hope they find a buyer, but the issue of building courses in such remote locations will always be tested by its ability to develop a continuous strong base of support. I hope a buyer can be found because golf is so much fun in such a special place like Red Mike. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2002, 12:19:01 PM »
This was exactly my point with my post about the sand hills ... I had gotten an invitation to bid on Red Mike in the mail.

I've never seen the course, just a few pictures, but I've heard several good reviews such as Matt's.  And still, it's going under.  My point is to the "build it and they will come" dreamers, NOT NECESSARILY!  You really have to hit a home run, like Sand Hills or Bandon Dunes, for it to be successful.  And I don't really think it's possible for three or four different operators to hit back-to-back-to-back home runs in the same area.

Wild Horse is a great layout -- I'd like to think I could have done as well myself, but I'm not certain.  But, ultimately it is held back by its proximity to Sand Hills, and the similarities between the two.  For another course in the sand hills to succeed, it is going to have to be a bit different.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2002, 12:57:26 PM »
Tom

Depends what you mean by "a bit" different.  There is an old adage in business, which is generally true, that the best place to put a restaurant is across the street from a successful restaurant.  I think that the more good quality courses that are built in the vicinity of Sand Hills the more likely they will each be able to succeed (up to some unknown limit, of course).  They needn't be radically different from each other, any more than do or did Prestwick, Troon, Western Gailes, Barassie, etc.  All they need is character, and a little bit of individuality, which will come naturally from the sites used and the architect chosen to do something with the sites.  IMO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2002, 01:08:32 PM »
Matt, well written

I have to agree and disagree with TD.  I doubt that Wild Horse would stand a chance located where The Links of ND is located.  I seriously doubt that if Sand Hills was run as a daily fee, that it would flourish where Red Mike is located.  Sand Hills has its own private "built-in" operating budget model to keep it going.  Wild Horse is solvant, but not looking like it will become a cash cow any time in foreseeable future.  WH is daily fee with yearly membership fee that is geared to expectations in that area, and no matter how we talk it up as some sort of a cult destination for us GCA- minimalist design stategy junkies, it still has to get enough rounds played per year from locals and travellers to make it a go.  Out there in NE, the kind of money that Bandon/Pacific charges won't fly, period!   And, a field of dreams that doesn't have a well heeled owner-developer like PD/BD would have a lot tougher time surviving.  

Wild Horse in my opinion is not in the least held back by proximity or similarity to SH.  Actually, I don't even agree that they are that similar in many playing quality aspects.  The public can't pass on through and play at private SH.  The regional population (all 300 of them living within 50 miles of SH) can't afford and don't want to be members there.  The market to acquire operating revenue are totally different.  Wild Horse or any other public course out there will only survive with reasonable green fees affordable and within expectation of locals, and proximity to travellers (thank goodness for I-80 being two miles away from WH!)  Red Mike don't stand a chance on a daily fee basis on either count.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2002, 01:17:08 PM »
Rich, I agree with you, they don't have to be radically different.   I have had this discussion with Dan Proctor.  He is very sensitive to any copy of SH or WH as a general concept.  I feel that the sand hill environment dictates a certain approach that will be of a similar genre (is that an appropriate word you'd use here  ;) )  I like your analogy of the similarity by virtue of there regional location and terrain similarities of the courses you cited, although I haven't seen a one of them.  I think they will naturally have their own character based on no two parcels are alike and design/strategy ideas are infinite on said diversely contoured terrain.  

gotta go, Packer kickoff... :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2002, 07:30:37 PM »
I'm back from enduring the game... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_McDowell

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2002, 06:04:05 AM »
Red Mike is absolutely in the middle of nowhere.

I live in Minneapolis, and drive out to Bismarck, ND every summer to see the in-laws. That's a 400-mile, 7-hour trip. Every summer I vow to get out to Red Mike, and I've never made the trip. It's just too far.

From Bismarck, Red Mike is over 200 miles one way. That's too far for a single-day golf outing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2002, 07:51:36 AM »
Jeff:

I hear what you say -- the trip I made from Clifton, NJ was even further!

Jeff, you're so right on target -- nobody gets to Williston by accident! When somebody says there's no where and less than no where I would offer Williston as being beyond that. :D

Tom Doak raises a good point about commercial viability because at the end of the day golf design is tied to a business plan -- getting and retaining paying customers to your location.

I love the isolation of Red Mike, Sand Hills and others like them becausse the sheer expanse that's so uncluttered just makes you want to keep on playing. When I played Red Mike I just wanted to keep on going and going one hole after the next because when you thought about it not only was the countryside and golf linked wonderfully together -- you also realized just what else is there to do???

 Living in the mega-packed northeast quadrant is a little much at times with everyone climbing over each other.

My guess would be that if you can build courses in remote areas that have at least some type of access to a major Interstate you have some possibility of commercial success. Clearly, there are areas where even the Interstates do not come that close and as a result it is doubtful these type of courses will remain viable. That's sad -- but a reality.

When I made my trek to Williston I tied in visits to Sheridan, WY to play Powder Horn and then trekked from Williston all the way across MT to play the creative Nicklaus design at Old Works in Anaconda. Nothing like the daytime speed possibilities in MT. Would I go out of my way to return to Red Mike? Doubtful -- unless other quality courses of this type were built.

But, I would still recommend Red Mike for anyone who just so happens to be in the neighborhood. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2002, 10:37:47 PM »
The main thing that Wild Horse has going for it is that it is only 3 miles off I-80.  They could do a better job advertising it to get people there.  Enough golfers probably drive by it every day to fill 3 or 4 courses if they only knew they were there and how good they were.

I wanted to go by Red Mike on my way home from the Futures Tour in 2000, but the fires in Montana convinced me to stay south.  It did look remote on the map.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2002, 10:01:47 AM »
:) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-/ :-* :'(

I've been through every one of those faces as I've thought about this.

Take a look at the Red Mike photo gallery: http://www.blueridgedigital.net/image_gallery/gallery/view_gallery.php

Do you like what you see? I do.

Here's my big idea for the year -- possibly my silliest big idea...but possibly not:

We need our own golf club, don't you think? A place where the golf is pretty much the entire raison d'etre? A place to which members from all over the world would make an occasional (annual or semi-annual) pilgrimage -- for sunrise-to-sunset golf, for the camaraderie, for the getting-away-from-it-all?

Red Mike could be just the place! Like Mullen, Nebraska, it's hard -- but not impossible -- to get to...which is a good thing, or this idea would be unthinkable.

Here's the idea: Emulate the Sand Hills model. Recruit a hundred members (give or take), from far and wide, at a reasonable price. (I have no clue what the course, etc., will sell for -- but it can't be for much, can it?) Build some comfortable cabins, or a lodge -- to accommodate, say, 50 visitors. Hire a chef. Stock the bar with every Scotch known to man. Reserve the overnight accommodations for members and their guests, and for properly referred visitors. Open the restaurant and the golf course to public play -- as much public play as possible, given the overarching need to accommodate members and their guests.

I haven't played the course, so I can't say how good it really is, but the reports have all been excellent.

The golf course (with RV park) is being sold in combination with more than 240 acres of additional land -- plenty of room for a second course. (Wouldn't it be fun to see TEPaul, championing Mr. Doak or Messrs. C&C, battle Patrick Mucci, pleading the case for Rees, as we plan Red Mike No. 2? And don't forget Jim Engh! He's the Native Son, isn't he?)

Also for sale are 60-plus acres along the water -- where the cabins (or lodge) would logically be built.

It's beautiful country -- the kind of place where a person can find refuge. That's Lake Sakakawea (a widening in the Missouri River) that you see in the background of several of the pictures -- and my best hunter/fisherman buddy informs me that that country is outstanding for hunting Pheasant, sharptail grouse, ducks and Canada Geese, as well as for fishing. (You wouldn't expect to find Theodore Roosevelt National Park just down the road from any place that DIDN'T have good hunting and fishing, would you?)

I'm the idea guy -- but not the money guy, or the real-estate guy, or the construction guy. Any interest in pursuing this? Anyone? My checkbook is ready.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tom Doak

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2002, 10:11:09 AM »
I agree with John V there.  I-80 gets quite a bit of traffic, and brings the visitors who help subsidize the locals' membership fees, just like in Ireland.

If Wild Horse were 50 miles north, they'd have a really difficult time.

My point above, though, was that without a large population base, you have to build what is considered a TOP 20-type golf course in order to attract people to travel that far off the beaten path.  And it's hard to build a top 20 course in the same style, and right next door to another one.  That's one reason Bill and Ben [and Dan and Dave] don't want to do another project in the sand hills -- they know if they do, it will undermine the original a bit.

RJ, you're right, Wild Horse doesn't suffer a bit in the eyes of its clientele because of the proximity to Sand Hills -- Sand Hills might as well be on Mars, as far as most of them are concerned.  But, it does suffer in the rankings a bit, because of the inevitable comparison made by raters who have played both.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Has anyone played Red Mike Resort, ND?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2002, 10:57:55 AM »
RJ:

I'm looking forward to teeing it up this summer at Wild Horse. Can you be available for a game?

Last question -- do you have course info --- yardage from the tips / CR & Slope? Thanks!

Dan:

Just getting to Williston is an adventure and winter seems to hang around for awhile! I can guarantee you won't ever have to worry about slow play! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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