Who is kidding Who ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Grossman,

I was just kidding you.

Dan Kelly,

I'm not kidding you.  

[Dan Kelly]

Dan Kelly,

I'm not kidding you.  

Sorry, sir, but I've had enough of this.

Tilting at windmills is fun -- but only for a while.

Modified: Not to mix my literary allusions, but it strikes me that "The Myth of Sisyphus" better describes a thread like this than "Don Quixote" does.

[THuckaby2]

Tom Huckaby:

You suggest that my comment about people trying to walk off with the lowest score possible is significantly different than what Pat had to say. Now we are mincing words!

Of course, people play the game with other things in mind. For instance, I've long been impressed with friends from Ballybunion and how they seem to appreciate the social aspect of the game more than we do. But, no matter how friendly the games are, everyone does try to do what Pat suggested: shoot the lowest score possible, though usually within a match rather than stroke play format.

Whether down at my local muni, at a world class venue like Ballybunion or at some hot new CCFAD, almost everyone wants to shoot the best they can. In my experience, the exceptions to that rule are a pretty small group.

No hassles, Tim.  The bottom line here is that the exceptions EXIST (which Pat heretofore seems to deny).  My experience with such is more than yours, and that's just fine.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

It's okay with me, if you don't want to discuss golf or golf architecture.

I've grown accustomed to it.  

[CHrisB]

It matters not whether you have 6 clubs or 14 clubs, you're still trying to shoot the lowest score possible with the implements you have at your disposal.

Actually, no, when I'm playing irons-only I'm working on shotmaking and mechanics, without regard for score.  How do you claim to know what I'm trying to do?

In terms of the endeavor, what's the difference between a reasonably good amount of strokes and the fewest strokes ?

If your question is "Do you know anyone who plays the game without any regard for his score?", then there probably isn't much of a difference.  But your question was "Does anybody play golf, or play golf with someone else who doesn't try to get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible?"  And there is a big difference between trying shoot as low as possible and trying to just get it in with a reasonable score.  As a competitive golfer, you know that.

(Actually I can give you a real-world example that you won't be able to refute, but I've got to step out so I'll save it for my next post...)

[Michael Dugger]

ChrisB

I get exactly what you are saying, as do most of the people who will read this.  You are correct, and have done a very good job of explaining why.  Yes, Pat Mucci does know what you are trying to do.  How silly to think not  It's called disagreeing with him and that just won't stand.

[Patrick_Mucci]

ChrisB,

sometimes I'll go play with irons only to work on longer iron approaches.

When you're working on long iron approaches you're trying to hit those irons on the green and close to the pin.
That results in lower scores.

Otherwise, you're just practicing.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan Kelly,

It's okay with me, if you don't want to discuss golf or golf architecture.

I've grown accustomed to it.  

Sigh.

After rolling the ball up the hill with you now several times, Patrick, I'm reminded of something -- which you can hear, if your computer is sound-equipped, at http://www.garagelogic.com

Click on "Sounds of the Town," then on "Show Sounds," then on "President Bush -- Fool me once quote."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris B,

MDugger is trying to act as your interpreter, intermediary or commentator.

Try to disregard all statements made by ignoranuses.

Tom Huckaby,

I needn't explain the humor in that one.... do I ?  

[CHrisB]

When you're working on long iron approaches you're trying to hit those irons on the green and close to the pin.
That results in lower scores.

Otherwise, you're just practicing.

Pat,
Now you've got it--I'm just practicing, and not playing for score.  My example that I'll give you in my next post will help illustrate why.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris B,

No need to.

I discussed practicing previously.

Irrespective of whether you're on the range or the golf course, practice shots have no consequence, other than supplying mental and physical signals for evaluative, not scoring purposes.  It is not playing golf, it is practice.
One of my favorite pursuits.

[THuckaby2]

Chris B,

MDugger is trying to act as your interpreter, intermediary or commentator.

Try to disregard all statements made by ignoranuses.

Tom Huckaby,

I needn't explain the humor in that one.... do I ?  

I read you loud and clear Patrick.  I kinda like that... ignoranus... I'm gonna co-opt that one, giving you full credit of course!  

TH

[CHrisB]

Pat,

I can choose all sorts of examples of this (including myself) but I'll give this one.

Erik Labitze won the Rice Planters Amateur in Mt. Pleasant, SC, last summer after undergoing a fairly significant swing change the year before.  I played with him in 2 of the rounds at the Rice Planters, and because I was going through a swing change at the time, we spoke at length about the process.

He believes (as do I) that when you are making a major swing change, it is important to still compete in tournaments as you make the change.  But the important thing that you have to remember when you do is this: Don't play for score.  If you play for score, you will invariably fall back upon your old habits and discard the mechanical changes you are trying to make.  Progress toward making the change is slowed.

The endeavor when competing while making a swing change is to make the move you are trying to groove.  It doesn't matter where the ball goes.  The more important thing is that you try to make the move you want to make under the pressure of competition.  You know you won't shoot as low as can, you know you'll probably have a couple of blow-up rounds, but in the long run you have taken greater steps toward the "finish line" of the swing change than you would have if you had (a) stayed on the range until you felt comfortable with the move, or (b) tried to play for score in tournaments.

Regarding (a): If you stay on the range until you feel comfortable, you will still have a significant adjustment period when you return to tournament play, because you have not taken a single swing with your new move under any sort of pressure.

Regarding (b): We are taught to try to shoot the lowest possible score, especially in competitive play.  To many people this means playing shots within your ability, playing shots you are confident in, playing shots you have practiced and prove reliable under pressure.  But if you are trying to make a swing change, the new move is not among those options, and many people would revert to hitting knock-downs, fades, anything to keep it in play, anything to score.  You're not getting any closer to completing the swing change if you do that.  

Are you trying to shoot the lowest possible score you can? NO.  Are you trying to hit the ball as close as possible to your target? NO (it's a bonus if it happens, but you're not trying to do it).  You are trying to make a certain move, a move that, until grooved, will more than likely NOT produce a reliable shot toward the target, will NOT enable you to shoot as low as possible.

So Erik spent quite a bit of the 2001 season (and I spent quite a bit of the 2002 season) entering tournaments and focusing on making the new move rather than score.  His missed shots were big, and he didn't have many low scores or great finishes during that time, but he was sacrificing score in the short term for the long-term gain of completing the swing change and becoming a better player.

This happens a lot on Tour as well.  You sacrifice in the short term to benefit in the long term.

You might call that "practice" under competitive conditions (the best kind of practice there is).

[CHrisB]

So getting back to some of the responses on this thread, I think what many are saying that is while they never intentionally hit a bad shot to blow up their score, they do try shots that do not fall clearly within their range of ability, that they know more likely than not will produce a higher score than if they had stuck to shots they knew they could play reliably.

They are abandoning their pursuit of a good score to "see if they can hit this shot"--Call this "practice" as well if you like...removing the consequences and playing shots to see if you can pull them off.

[CHrisB]

So to wrap up my thoughts and (finally!) answer your question: Yes, just about everyone I've ever played with has, on at least some occasion, played golf without trying to get the ball in the hole in the fewest possible strokes.

Some because of overly conservative play, trying to shoot a decent score and not the lowest possible score.

Some because of their desire to turn the round into a "practice" situation as described in my previous two posts.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris B,

I understand the "process" of trying to "fix/groove" a new swing.

Even minor grip adjustments are difficult, and the desires, conscious or unconscious, to revert to the old ways under pressure are great.

But, I think you're logic is flawed.
A competition is a format whereby the competitors try to shoot the lowest score possible.
If that is not your goal, then the swing changes that you are trying to "groove" aren't being "tested" under pressure, and thus, it's not much different than an ordinary practice round.
It is only when you're trying to hit the best shots, trying to score the lowest, that your swing is subjected to the pressure necessary to "fix/groove" it.  That is the acid test.

If you're not trying to hit the best shots, and score the lowest, the competitions have no relevance in the process of trying to fix/groove your new swing.

[Jeff Fortson]

This is quite trite but here I go anyway.....

There are no pictures on a scorecard.


Jeff F.

[CHrisB]

A competition is a format whereby the competitors try to shoot the lowest score possible.
If that is not your goal, then the swing changes that you are trying to "groove" aren't being "tested" under pressure, and thus, it's not much different than an ordinary practice round.
It is only when you're trying to hit the best shots, trying to score the lowest, that your swing is subjected to the pressure necessary to "fix/groove" it.  That is the acid test.

If you're not trying to hit the best shots, and score the lowest, the competitions have no relevance in the process of trying to fix/groove your new swing.

That's fine, Patrick--I have no problem disagreeing with you on how to best go through a swing change.  I believe in the approach I am taking and many people indeed take this approach.

But your original question was: "Does anybody play golf, or play golf with someone else who doesn't try to get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible ?"

And I have given you the answer--yes, most people I 've played with have played this way at one time or another, and the way they do it is to turn it into a "practice" situation like I described in my previous posts.

Whether or not you agree with the effectiveness of this approach is irrelevant to your original question (though it is an interesting topic of its own).  The fact is that many people take this approach at one time or another, and so that is my answer to your original question.