[Mark_Fine]

Given the fact that you can't really tinker too much with a USGA green once it's been built, doesn't that by definition limit the architect in fine tuning the end result to make it just the way he would like it?  Is this a big disadvantage the modern architects have over the architects of old?

[TEPaul]

Yes and yes. As I heard it the USGA spec green has to match the surface layer with the subsurface layer, something not so necessary with the greens built by the old guys, so clever little internal green contours and such are much harder (more expensive and work) to do with the USGA spec green.

The main reason they have to match well? To avoid drainage problems and such related things.

[Slag_Bandoon]

They are not bound by law to build toUSGA greens specs, so, no.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,

It's t`true that the top layer must follow the subgrade and gravel layer (and choker sand layer if incorporated).  Of course, if you cut the 12" sand depth, you may have the embarssing situation where you don't have depth for the superintendent to cut a cup.  If you build a hump, it really dries out.  To prove this to yourself, go soak a rectangular sponge in water.  Turn in on its short, medium and then long axis pointing up and down.  You will find that each allows more water to drain out.  A deeper profile is similar.

Since I haven't built any non sand greens, I guess I don't consider it a disadvantage, but it does mean you have to build the contours the way you want them in subgrade. Then you have to watch the final grade to make sure it conforms.  We usually exagerate the subgrade, as the subsequent layers usually soften the contours quite a bit.

[Peter Galea]

Good one Jeff,
I've got....errr....my 7 year old has sponges draining all over the kitchen.
Drip.drip.
Now, where's a dry sponge so I can clean it up?
[bangs head on desk]
Pete-Type B

[Jeff Mingay]

Rod Whitman supervised the construction of Austin CC for Pete Dye in the early 1980s. Whitman told me Dye would frequently alter the top layer of USGA spec greens during his site visits, if he didn't think the contour was interesting enough. He'd just "throw" a pile of mix down, here and there, to create a few more random humps and bumps!  

As we all know, Mr. Dye's never been one to stick to "the rules." Which is exactly why he built some of the world's most interesting courses since the Golden Age.

I've never been involved with something like this, but I can't imagine amending the top layer by a few inches, here and there, is going to cause any problems.

[Bob_Huntley]

Pete Galea:

Did you hear we are abandoning USGA recommended A4 at MPCC(Dunes) and returning to Poa?
A4 works superbly at Tehama, more sun and dryer conditions, but is a bit of a disaster in our micro-climate. I've always wondered why anyone would think to change from a grass that has worked so well for 90 years.

[Jeff Mingay]

Bob,

That's a great question that derserves some comment and discussion: Why would anyone think to change the grassing on greens that has worked well for over 90 years?

It starts with money I presume. Clubs with money to spend just can't resist spending it on change. The best preserved classic courses belong to clubs without money to spend, or with "tight" members! I believe this is a proven theory.

I visitied CC of Detroit the other day. The situation that occurred with their greens a few years ago is a case study in how screwing around with classic greens for the sake of upgrading them to presumably new and improve bentgrass cultivar can back fire!

If you know of a club that's interesting in redoing their 80 year old greens, tell them to study what happened at CC of Detroit a few years ago, under the direction of the Jones family and they'll likely change their mind very quickly.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Why change from poa? Certainly the main reason in my area is the epidemic problem of anthracnose!

At the moment the evidence is still heavily against poa but the info on anthracnose is still coming in! Basically poa greens may be just rolling the dice and the not unexpected result of sticking with them may be putting on dirt!

[RJ_Daley]

What to do when the root zone peter's out or goes sour, so to speak.  If it was previous native pushup; replace with USGA?  If sand based california type, go with another sand based or convert to USGA?  What do you seed on a green that must have the rootzone replenished in northern cool climates.  Bent of course.  I guess they can get away with poa nurseries in CA, but renovation in the cool season zones or where bent is desired requires seeding with a bent cultivar and managing as long as possible against onslaught of poa.   Renovated greens with new cultivars may likely be putting faster than old poa dominated ones.  So, can you keep the original contours-slopes if they were previously dramatic?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

I believe you can tinker with a USGA green, it's just a bigger, costlier project, which might deter some clubs from trying.

[Tom Doak]

Bob Huntley:  My understanding is that the nematodes which are attacking all the greens in San Francisco feed on Poa annua, not on bentgrass.  That's why most of the courses up there are switching to bent or considering it.

Poa annua is better adapted to the northern California climate than bentgrass, because it doesn't require as much sunlight to thrive, and the summer fog plays havoc with bent greens.  But having a pest chomping the roots off your greens isn't really good, either.

[Mike_Young]

I believe the reason for parallel layers in a USGA green is to create a perched water table that can be and give the supt. greens that he is able to manage consistently throughout the course.  IMHO many times the sand thickness varies above the standard 12inches on "USGA greens" and is never known until a problem arises.  It is not to say it will not work but a supt will have to manage much more carefully.  Supts, is this correct.
Mike

[Don_Mahaffey]

In theory the profile is a uniform depth, usually 12 inches, on all the greens. In reality, there is usually some variance as the finish grade is worked. That subgrade just never looks the same as when the cavity is full and the green is taking shape. As long as the variance is not to big, I don't think it's any great reason for alarm, although you will find plenty of guys who swear it has to be a perfect profile or the green is doomed. Fact is, all the greens never act the same as it is impossible to have identical irrigation, air circulation, or surface drainage unless all the greens were identical. I believe this is one area in golf course management where there is a little too much science and not enough art.

[Peter Galea]

Bob,
Before the 'anguina' invasion, I would have said poa annua is the best putting surface there is. Oh what the heck, it is the best, especially in our area. Yes, it is shallow rooted and disease prone, however when properly maintained it is true, fast and without grain. Anthracnose is a secondary disease which can be managed. (I had none this year).
While all greens in the transition zone are seeded to bentgrass, eventually poa will move in. We have new tools to keep it at bay, but I think eradication at this time and in this area is futile.
Mark Logan, the grow in super at Mayacama (now private consultant) has had great success maintaining poa-free bent with his program of high iron and virtually no nitrogen. This has yet to be proven in the coastal climate.
Tom Doak is right about the challenge of maintaining poa under nema pressure. Last year I had damage on two greens, this year on about 8. I am trying several different regimes to minimize the damage (note the operative word-minimze). I have done a lot of study on this pest 'anguina pacificae' and have no illusions that I will be able to eradicate it, no more than I can eradicate poa annua.
All in all, poa has been around for tens of thousands of years and it will be here long after I'm gone.
We just have to keep working, learning and do the best we can with what we have.

[Herb Flood]

I do not believe that a USGA green is the answer to everyone...What about in the southeast United States, especially SE Louisiana where we average 70-90 inches of rainfall annually? Native soil greens are constantly under disease stresses due to inadequate physical properties (particularly infiltration rates...or lack thereof). What you recommend for this particular climate???

[Mark_Fine]

Anyone have any idea what percent of greens built today are USGA greens?  

[Bob_Huntley]

TEP and Tom Doak:

Pete Galea has spoken, much more eloquently than I could on the subject and with a great deal more knowledge. All I know, is that our Poa greens have been a match for just about any other surfaces on which I have had the pleasure of putting.

[jim__janosik]

If  you  interpret  the  spec legalisticaly  and strictly  probably
50%  are built to  USGA  spec.  

[Jimbo (Guest)]

I would hope that at $40 k=/-, plus his fee, the architect could get it close enough on the first try.  And make sure the construction crew understands and builds it properly.

[Herb Flood]

Jimbo,

Believe it or not, there are alot of architects who do not properly design "root zone specs" which results in the the greens super being the scapegoat when things go south several years later. Marrying the two deciplines of design and agronomics is actually the best of both worlds. Anything can be designed, but can anything be maintained???

[Evil Lurker]

Actually the new USGA specs say the final green contour should match the pea gravel and not necessarily the subgrade.  So the subgrade could be a simple bowl that drains and the contour could be put into the pea gravel - kinda hard to shape pea gravel, especially without tearing up the tiles, I suppose...  Also the top layer is to be between 12 min and 14 inches max - a little room to play.

Rumour was that the last time (the 6th time?) they tore up TPC at Sawgrasses green to be rebuilt, the mix varied anywhere from 8" to 3'.

The USGA has also backed off the perched water table theory.

[Brian Phillips]

Evil Lurker,

I have just come back from England on a design and Turf conference where seminars by Jim Moore (USGA) and James (the one and only) B. Beard held.

They did not mention your opinion about the perched water table and in fact James Beard mentioned many times in one of his seminars about water use and irrigation so I think that your opinion is wrong.

If you say that the USGA has backed off from the theory could you please refer to some documentation or report saying so because I believe the whole USGA recommended green to be based on the theory of a perched water table.

Buy James Beard's new book and it is mentioned many times...
and if the messiah of turf says it is a perched water table then that's good enough for me.

I even got the book signed by him.

I am a golf course constructor/designer but love listeneing to him and would recommend anyone from this site to attend one of his seminars if you get the chance.

Another you guys should remember is that is a USGA recommendation not a Spec..

[Don_Mahaffey]

Brian,
There is research out that shows the perched water table theory was more theory then reality. I think one of the researchers was Ed McCoy from Ohio St. who did some work with both USGA and California greens. I believe the theory of the perched water table was that as the green dried from the top, water would be pulled up by capillary action and the plant would basically have a water reserve. However, research, and more importantly field observation, has shown that as a USGA green dries the water that does move up by capillary action is mostly unavailable to the plant because it is in the small micro or capillary pores and held too tightly by the soil to be used by the plant. The USGA green is more a growing medium and drainage system then it is a water reservoir. If I can find some links to the research I will post them later.  

[TEPaul]

I don't know what you call the specs on Augusta National's greens, USGA or what, but I know for a fact that #12, for instance, has anything a plant would ever need under there.

If those little capillaries feel squeezed they have little men under there to loosen things up immediately! If the grass feels too hot they have little air-conditioners under there and if it feels too cold they have little heaters too. I even heard if the grass felt like some quiche lorrainne they could even get some of that for it under there!

This doesn't come cheap though!

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