[DMoriarty]

I couldn't find it on their site, but I recall reading some time ago that the water in the creek that runs through course actually leaves the property cleaner than it enters. Their FAQ does say that fish have returned to the creek, which used to be part of the smelting operation.  Pretty impressive use of the property if that's the case.  I'd love to get back to the area some day, as Butte has played a large role in my family history.  My aunt (though not blood related) grew up in Butte, as did my grandmother.  My great grandfather died in a mine fire there about 110 years ago. 

Butte and Anaconda both have great character and fascinating history, and both have experienced their share of tragedies and downtimes over the years. Butte had hundreds of mines, at least as many saloons, and more Irish per capita than anywhere outside of Ireland.  Butte and Anaconda each had golf clubs around the turn of last century and had been playing golf for a number of years when A. Findlay designed the Butte Country Club around 1909.

As for Old Works, I cant remember exactly what they did with the creek, but I think it involved lining the banks so that no water from the site could get into the creek.   I think the whole project topped 40 million dollars, which has to make it the most expensive community golf course per capita anywhere.

[Bill Seitz]

As for Old Works, I cant remember exactly what they did with the creek, but I think it involved lining the banks so that no water from the site could get into the creek.   I think the whole project topped 40 million dollars, which has to make it the most expensive community golf course per capita anywhere.

I thought it was a lot less, and was supposed to actually cost less than it was going to cost to cement over and fence around the facility.  I couldn't find anything related to cost (though I didn't look that hard), but this site has a lot of interesting information about the project.
http://www.brownfields.com/Feature/Feature-12-19-02-oldworks.htm

[Garland Bayley]

... I think the whole project topped 40 million dollars, which has to make it the most expensive community golf course per capita anywhere.

Jack's book says it cost 23 million.

[DMoriarty]

I had read 40 million, but maybe that included other aspects of the project than just the golf course.  Whatever the number, it was a lot of a community of 9000 known for its tough economic conditions. 

[Howard Riefs]

Old Works is in danger of permanently closing at the end of the month, according to the local paper:

http://mtstandard.com/news/local/old-works-golf-course-may-close-permanently/article_481b3795-d730-59db-beff-e7698e968e78.html

Here's a Saltzman photo tour:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48889.0.html

[Tom_Doak]

Old Works is in danger of permanently closing at the end of the month, according to the local paper:

It would be a shame if the golf course closed.  It's a good course, and it's been used for years as an example of environmental stewardship and remediation. 

It's hard to believe that all parties did the deal without specifying who was responsible for the continued operation of the course.  [In fact, it's completely impossible; there had to be reams of paperwork about who was responsible for what, so ARCO is either responsible, or they're not.]  But it sounds like the course is now just a pawn in the game over the final, larger Superfund settlement.

What is not shocking is that the company that made the mess no longer exists, and the company that took over their assets does not want to deal with their liabilities.

[Garland Bayley]

Old Works is in danger of permanently closing at the end of the month, according to the local paper:

It would be a shame if the golf course closed.  It's a good course, and it's been used for years as an example of environmental stewardship and remediation. 

It's hard to believe that all parties did the deal without specifying who was responsible for the continued operation of the course.  [In fact, it's completely impossible; there had to be reams of paperwork about who was responsible for what, so ARCO is either responsible, or they're not.]  But it sounds like the course is now just a pawn in the game over the final, larger Superfund settlement.

What is not shocking is that the company that made the mess no longer exists, and the company that took over their assets does not want to deal with their liabilities.

The article mentions three year-round full-time employees. Does RCCC employ analogous personnel?

[Tom_Doak]

The article mentions three year-round full-time employees. Does RCCC employ analogous personnel?

I don't know Rock Creek's personnel situation for a fact, but I know it's hard to justify very many year-round employees in a place where the winter temps go well below zero for 3-4 months.  Like most courses in northern Michigan, they probably keep on the superintendent, assistant, and mechanic.  Everybody else is seasonal ... some for 6-8 months of the year and some for 3-4 months in the summer.

[Craig Sweet]

ARCO/BP are scum...the people of Anaconda and Butte know this, as do the people in Montana that have watched them drag their feet on cleaning up the mess that they KNOWINGLY bought years ago.

When you live here in Montana you quickly realize that for better than 100 years the state has been treated like a 3rd world country by the multi-national mining and timber industries. Exploit...take the wealth...run...and leave the consequences for the locals to deal with.

The next big environmental disaster is going to be the "oil and gas" boom over in eastern Montana and the Dakotas.

[Bill_McBride]

ARCO/BP are scum...the people of Anaconda and Butte know this, as do the people in Montana that have watched them drag their feet on cleaning up the mess that they KNOWINGLY bought years ago.

When you live here in Montana you quickly realize that for better than 100 years the state has been treated like a 3rd world country by the multi-national mining and timber industries. Exploit...take the wealth...run...and leave the consequences for the locals to deal with.

The next big environmental disaster is going to be the "oil and gas" boom over in eastern Montana and the Dakotas.

BP was not a good neighbor here on the Gulf either.  Eleven workers died due to their established gross negligence but nobody went to jail.  Your "third world" analogy is apt.

[DMoriarty]

Too bad if this course closes.  It is very important to the community and it is one of the better public courses in the region.  Perhaps most importantly, the course itself was supposed to an integral part of the clean up for what was (is?) the largest environmental superfund site in the nation.  Given that the mineral companies stuck Montana with the mess, it should be of no surprise that they are now trying to stick her with the solution.

[Craig Sweet]

I'm not sure how important the course is to the community. The town is small and local play is not that great.  I wonder how many rounds are played there these days?  I would be shocked if its greater than 25K....

The thing is, Old Works should charge, at a minimum, $125 for a round of golf...current rate is $60 and that includes a cart and range balls...

[DMoriarty]

Isn't the course important to the community in terms of image, and in terms of a symbol of moving forward from the disasters of the past?  It seemed like the project used to be a point of pride in that part of the state, but perhaps this isn't the case anymore.

How do you figure they should charge $125 dollars per round?  Who in Anaconda is going to pay that kind of money?  Given the market, I'd always thought the course was a bit overpriced, but you are closer to the market than me so I am curious as to why you think it is underpriced?

[Garland Bayley]

Why do I need to pay for someone else's cart and range balls when I play there? Didn't used to be that way. I doubt I'll play there again given that change in fee policy.

$125 is ridiculous. I've never paid more than $35 to play there.
I could understand separate fees for locals vs. out of towners, such as at Chambers Bay, etc. But even $60 is too much for the locals to pay.

[Dave McCollum]

I’ve played there a number of times over the last 17 years.  I didn’t keep track, but at least 30 rounds.  It was always my impression that the course was very important to the local economy in attracting tourists to a dying mining town, providing a few jobs, and using golf as a dramatic solution to a toxic waste superfund site.  Given what was said about how much money was saved by capping with a golf course vs. a total site cleanup, it would seem entirely reasonable to endow the course with enough bucks to make it sustainable.  I have no idea what the endowment needs to be.  It looks like an expensive course to maintain in the style in which it was created—as a “Nicklaus Signature Course” with wall to wall bent grass in a mountain climate.  A deal is a deal, but it would be a real shame for OW to go under.

Affordable golf was always part of mandate.  I guess $60/round passes as affordable these days for the traveling golfer.  I doubt that it is for the locals.

[Chris DeToro]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda,_Montana

Agreed-I can't imagine $60 is viewed as a great value locally

[Dave McCollum]

And there are two other local courses nearby, a nine hole “country club” and the 18 hole Fairmount Hot
Springs, a resort layout.  Another couple in Butte.  My guess is that they need 25K tourist rounds at $60 or some combination of local rounds + tourist rounds to be sustainable.  That’s a pretty tall order given their altitude/season/local economy.  Hence the need for an endowment.  I hope that they can work something out with BP/ARCO.

[Bill Seitz]

And there are two other local courses nearby, a nine hole “country club” and the 18 hole Fairmount Hot
Springs, a resort layout.

I haven't played it, but when I was in that area (and played Old Works) it was for a family reunion, and we went to the resorts so that the kids could go swimming.  I suppose it's technically a golf course, and it's at a resort, but "resort layout" is not the image that pops into my head when I think of Fairmount Hot Springs.  1950s style back and forth tree lined muni in marginal condition is more what comes to mind.  I suppose it's golf, and it might be fine for the locals, but it's not really in the same class as Old Works. 

$60 with cart seems pretty reasonable to me for people in the area, but it also strikes me as the type of place that could/should do memberships for locals that could push the average cost of a round below that if played frequently.  Unfortunatley, the cost of the annual pass isn't on their website at the moment.

[Dave McCollum]

Bill.

I haven't played the other courses either.  I'm not a golf snob.  I'll play just about anything and have a good time.  With OW and RCCC in the area and OW's reasonable rates, why bother?  I was commenting on quantity, not quality. 

My point was that these other courses aren't maintained at anywhere the level as required at OW and probably are more affordable to the locals.  Fairmont has the pools and from a brief look seems to specialize in weddings, reunions, meetings, and other gatherings.  Golf is just another activity available.  Somebody posted the Wiki link about Anaconda, where it said the average household income was $35K.  Not much room for $60/round golf in those households.  And 3 golf courses for a town of 9K people is a lot.

To me this means that an affordable local rate at OW won't come close to paying for the maintenance, no matter how much they desire to support the community.  They need a lot of tourist rounds to supplement the costs of operation. I wish all of the courses only the best and do sincerely hope they can figure out how to survive.  It ain't easy.     

[DMoriarty]

I wonder if the maintenance costs at Old Works are higher than normal due to the elaborate drainage setup and other environmental remediations.

[Dave McCollum]

I wonder if the maintenance costs at Old Works are higher than normal due to the elaborate drainage setup and other environmental remediations.

My guess is no.  More a function of design and whatever "JN Signature" means.  To look as good as it does, costs a lot of money.  The Supers will have to confirm, but I also suspect the bent fairways and greens are more costly.  One cost savings is the black bunker sand, the slag.  They have a couple of piles of slag that are about a mile long and a hundred feet high.  Recommendation:  visit the practice bunker before you play; it's different stuff.   

[DMoriarty]

My guess is no.  More a function of design and whatever "JN Signature" means.  To look as good as it does, costs a lot of money.  The Supers will have to confirm, but I also suspect the bent fairways and greens are more costly.  One cost savings is the black bunker sand, the slag.  They have a couple of piles of slag that are about a mile long and a hundred feet high.  Recommendation:  visit the practice bunker before you play; it's different stuff.   

It has been at least a decade since I have read anything about the course, but for some reason I was thinking that irrigation and/or drainage was complicated and that there was some required water treatment at one end or both ends. This is why I was wondering about potentially higher costs, but it could be that I am misremembering the process. 

I've played the course a number of times over the years.  I don't mind playing out of the slag bunkers at all.

[Garland Bayley]

The remediation was to cap with clay to prevent toxicity from coming up, and to prevent any toxicity getting into Warm Springs Creek. My understanding is that there is no active system to be maintained to do these things. So no cost. The clay cap does the job.

[Bill Seitz]

Bill.

I haven't played the other courses either.  I'm not a golf snob.  I'll play just about anything and have a good time.  With OW and RCCC in the area and OW's reasonable rates, why bother?  I was commenting on quantity, not quality. 

I didn't mean to sound snobbish.  We didn't avoid playing it because it wasn't up to our standards.  My cousins play at Sidney CC all the time, which is fine little course for the town, but nothing to write home about.  I'll play just about anywhere anyone has a game set up.  But I was just pointing out the the two courses are not really in the same league.

[Dave McCollum]

Bill,
No worries.  I didn't mean to imply you were a golf snob.  I was just admitting I can have fun on just about any course.  I still want to play Fairmont because the owner stopped by to play my course and said he enjoyed himself.  My experience of his a drive by only.  My Montana golf buddies who have played it don't want to play it again (skipping a round at OW).  Simple as that.

I mostly avoid rating discussions and am getting so old that I don't know how many new courses are in my future.  The last time I found myself trudging along alone on some windy and wet overseas links, I concluded that playing golf is more fun with friends. If that involves playing a great course, that's as good as it gets.  If it doesn't, that's still enjoyable.       

Dave   

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