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Chris Hervochon

Building the toughest golf course in the world
« on: January 23, 2002, 03:41:42 PM »
Alright, I got an idea.  How would you feel about building the hardest golf course in the world?  I think a course that Tiger shoots 80 on is a little drastic (I imagine that course would have to be 8500 yds. long and nobody would be able to break 130), but what about 75 on a good day?  It would be long, obviously, but not ridiculous (less than 7900).  Pot bunkers galore, the kind you could lose yourself in and greens that will make you squeal.  You would have to hit high shots, low shots, running shots, fades, draws, and every kind of shot you could think of; sometimes on the same hole.  I am not talking goofy golf on steroids, just a hepped up championship layout that’s a brute but fair.  Who’s with me?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2002, 06:00:54 PM »
I am not sure that is the game of golf I love. Please give me stategy, fun imaginative shots, character building moments, and yes I do not mind a little pain. A course of nothing but the above is penal to the limits and not for me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2002, 06:06:32 PM »
I'd go for the idea if you could cut it down by about 1000yds and still pull it off!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Hervochon

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2002, 07:11:10 PM »
Ok fine.  So we make it 7700 from the tips and soften up the ridiculous pot bunkers.  I say it has to be 7700 to make a running shot necessary.  If you make the course any shorter, the pros are long enough to not need the running shot.  How's that suit ya?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Don_Mahaffey

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2002, 07:26:51 PM »
Go play Carnoustie from the tips for a month, then you'll know if you really want to get beat up everyday :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2002, 07:31:25 PM »
Let's put water around all 18 greens, traps in the middle of
the driving area, trees guarding the greens. :P

Sound good? ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2002, 07:33:29 PM »
TEPaul:  They should go back, build a couple new tees and add another 93 yards to Torrey Pines...mission partially accomplished.  Perhaps they have room for a 747 yard par-5...they could call it Jumbo.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2002, 07:53:18 PM »
TEPaul:  I have to go back and learn to do basic math.  Ugh :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2002, 09:14:05 PM »
If Koolau isn't hard enough, try the fantasy course in Hawaii on the Microsoft Links (Access) golf game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2002, 10:41:24 PM »
Chris:

I'll give you two from Hoosier land that will give you all you want from the tips --

Wolf Run in Zionsville
Purgatory GC in Noblesville

Both of these courses remind me of the Romulans from Star Trek lore -- they take NO PRISONERS!!! ;D

Do yourself a big favor -- bring plenty of ammo / eggs, bullets, whatever you want to call balls -- because you'll need them -- both on the ground and between your legs. ;)

P.S. And, if you have not killed yourself after those two include the Straits Course at Whistling Straits (WI) and The Ocean Course at Kiawah (SC) from the monster tips that Pete Dye put in -- guaranteed traction p-l-u-s ... ouch it hurts just thinking about it. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2002, 01:44:18 AM »
TonyR:

Actually I like your idea for the 747yd par 5 at Torrey! But I wouldn't call it "Jumbo". I'd call it--put it on the card even--as "GIR??" And the two question marks are essential to the name! Maybe that might make even the touring pros start to consider the question and maybe even the answer!! And who knows, maybe it might even make them consider the future a bit more carefully!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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bmogg (Guest)

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2002, 01:56:51 AM »
It has been tried many times. It never works!

I know of several courses where the client has set out to create the toughest course in the world (or Australia or wherever). At Paradise Palms in Cairns they ended up softening things because it was too tough for the market (Japanese) and too tough for return play. Same at Koolau in Hawaii.

After all, after you have played the toughest course in the world once - where is the incentive to do it again (assuming you cannot also make it the funnest course in the world).

Not exactly the healthiest recipe for commercial success.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2002, 04:10:52 AM »
Koolau and Carnoustie are more than tough enough for
anyone! :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

JakaB

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2002, 07:58:33 AM »
I don't know exactly why...but I have really enjoyed getting the crap beat out of me by a little course in Indiana for the last year.  I only score badly when I make a bad swing or bad choice...and just seem to get off on the purity of it.  An aspect of a great design is when you can get the golfer to not look at his total score on the drive home....not look at a given hole....but marvel at even just one swing that found the moment.  This can best be found by testing the golfer to his limits....why a person would not want to be tested to the limit when playing a game makes me wonder why you would play at all...we are not talking about relationships or work where its sometimes best to settle for the common good....easy women and hard golf build character....bitching women and simple golf weaken the spine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
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Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2002, 08:19:54 AM »
Jakab and shivas

Almost perfect.  Perfect is doing all that you say but also winning 17 ways from your "scratch" buddies who couldn't break 85 on the day......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BillV

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2002, 08:22:27 AM »
Why not just visit a Dominatrix in San Francisco instead?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2002, 09:02:47 AM »
And now I have the ultimate problem to solve for you genius architectural analysts and conceptualizers!

Stick with this idea of building the toughest golf course in the world! But know figure out a way to do it without going over 6800yds. Figure out a way to do it also where all players (including women) can play from the same tee markers too (that's for you akaB)!

Of course, you're going to have to figure out how to reconceptualize both the concept of par and also the handicap allotments, but that's really not that hard to do if you think about it!

Just start with Donald Ross's accurate sentiment that "It's easy to build and easy course, and it's easy to build a hard course, but it's not that easy to build a course that accomodates everyone (although it can be done)! Ross also believed (in the beginning) that everyone could and should play from the same tee markers and if it took one person two shots to get to a green and someone else four shots, well, then, so be it! (could that thought not be modeled into handicapping seamlessly for total reality application??).

Just remember, every problem does have a solution somehow, somewhere! So have at it, and if you choose to accept this mission, and you succeed, I guarantee you that you will have, at the very least, created the world's most strategic golf course!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2002, 09:14:21 AM »
I've played the toughest course in the world but it might not be architecturally de rigeur.

See: http://www.tlgolf.com/destinations/0002zambia.html

I have the scorecard re the hippo footprints.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2002, 09:40:29 AM »
redanaman

Dominatrices only have trade from those who wish to be dominted.

Tom P

Such a course exists, and it is called Royal Dornoch, when playing fast and firm and when you have a card and a pencil in your hand and have to figure out how you are going to make up some strokes after starting 5, 4 (the "dream start")and the hardest part of the course is ahead of you.  Try playing it sometime, and you might just revise your opinions as to the relative position of Philadephia area courses in the pantheon of world venues.

Bob

...except, of course, those venues where you have to simultaneously hit the flop wedge to a falling away green and keep your AK-47 trained on the guerillas to your left while trying to NOT build a stance in the hippopotamus dung your right foot is standing in.......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2002, 01:46:40 PM »
Apologies to John Nash, Jr., and anyone else who finds my contributions inept, but --

I went to tlgolf.com to check out that Zambian course, and I couldn't help but laugh at tlgolf's lead story today: "Executive File . . . Donald Trump plays golf the way he does business."

And what's the punch line?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bill_Overdorf

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2002, 07:55:41 PM »
Chris, Just how idiotic do you deign to make this? Hell man, ANY idiot can design and build TOUGH by setting records for mistakes made in the process. But I can safely state that no qualified golf course designer will ascribe to the concept that the major facet of the design process is the intent to make the most of his ability to physically and mentally abuse his client base through the application of his design to the site.

This is the very last thing we intend to create through sound design applications, as the design is formulated to entice the playing public back to once again tackle the nuances put before him in the play of the game.

Once again, anyone can devise TOUGH venues, but this is not what the typical player is pursuing in his elected choices of places to play. I can safely state that this is the person for whom we ply our trade.

Stay tuned...... ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2002, 09:39:40 PM »
I think the misguided notion that it would be cool to build the world's toughest course as a torture chamber approach to golf construction/design is part of the overall pop culture dementia gripping the nation as evidenced by the imbecilic entertainment shows of which people seemed obsessed.   The likes of "Torture chamber", "the chair" (McEnroe host), Survivor, Fear factor, and all the rest of that of that brain cell wasting slop seems like the same concept as setting out to build the hardest course.  The village idiot could conceive it...  

I side with Overdorf and TE Paul.

Chris, that isn't a put down of you, as I realise your last comment is trying to speak about what a tough but real course of design strategy and features might be like.  But, I fear the media induced coma of average golf viewers (not serious players) would go for the mind mush simpleton entertainment value stuff...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2002, 01:32:13 AM »
With respect I think the idea is plain stupid, but if someone were to insist, I'd make every green at TPC@Sawgrass#17 style.  Island green with railroad ties.  Every par 4 over 440yds, and greens firm and fast.  Just hitting the green in regulation would be a mammoth feat.

Ridiculous, but that's one way to ensure it's the toughest course in the world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Hervochon

Re: Building the toughest golf course in the world
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2002, 03:39:46 PM »
Alright, I think my ill-phrased idea has run a muck.  Now by hard, I do not mean forced carries and elephant back greens.  No no.  I am not naieve enough to think that would work anywhere.  And this golf course would certainly not be public!  What I poorly implied was that I would like to be a golf course that demanded the use of EVERY possible shot.  Like having holes that made you hit two very different shots successively (i.e.- a high cut on the drive and a low hook on the second shot).  I think it is possible to make a course really demanding without making it a hit or miss type deal.  Just think, if every shot had to come within feet of a deep pot bunker to be perfect for the next shot.  That is pure strategy to me.  To have to hit shots that force you to challenge a REAL HAZARD in order to have a chance at par or birdie.  Tough is not 5" rough and 280yd carries of the tee.  That is insanity.  I don't think it would kill people to play a course like this.  Where a pro would have to hit every drive in the fairway and position himself perfectly on ever shot in order to have a good chance at par.  Maybe we could throw in a couple holes where a bump and run 9 iron was called for.  Who knows>?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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