[paul cowley]

...with Davis and Mark Love...their first too. I'm 59 now. 19 years and some 30 +/- courses later. I had not worked previously under others...no mentors (would of been nice, but didn't happen).

What age did the other 60+ designers out here enjoy their first? Just curious...am I the oldest?...nah, probably Brauer!

[Adrian_Stiff]

I built my first course at 13, we played on it every day it was 9 holes about par 30. I helped design a proper course that got built at 16. I have done 12 full 18 hole courses. Im 51 now and I dont think I will do another :O( I am probably now more inspired than ever to want to do another.

[paul cowley]

Well hell Adrian, you might just be the youngest! I have a feeling your not through yet.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

Just turned 56.  I guess my first course was finished in 1978 for KN and was the nine hole Warren Park/Joe Black golf course on the old Edgewater CC site that has been discussed here.  While a KN project, they let me run with it for the most part, including putting me out in the field three days per week, more to learn from Wadsworth than to teach them anything!  I would have been 23-24 upon opening.

First 18 hole course I would consider authorship of was Lake Arrowhead in WI, with nine holes finished in 1980 and the second nine in 1983, just before I left Ken to go on my own.  Age 25/28.

First 18 hole course on my own - Brookstone near Atlanta, in 1987, age 32.

Last 18 hole course on my own?  I will let you know, I just hope its not Firekeeper at age 56 (opens this month)

[Adam Clayman]

Ben Dewar might be the youngest. Not sure of how much involvement he had when he built one at the age of 9. And while Cabot Links is a collaborative effort under Whitman's name, I know Ben has been involved in every decision. Didn't Ben just turn 30 something?

[michael damico]

I had not worked previously under others...no mentors (would of been nice, but didn't happen).

How many of the designers on here had mentors?

[Mike_Young]

I was 37 when I opened my first course ..it had my name on it and I never had a mentor but I did spend 9 years calling on contracotrs, supts and courses...with the intent to one day design for myself....it was in LaGrange , Ga and I was involved in all phases of it from drawings thru the construction....
This business has gotten to the point of so many guys calling themselves golf architects that I really don't know what the word means...I am actually considering changing my website to golf course maker and never mentioning the word design or architect....when people say they designed a course at 10 years old ....or some guy comes on here and says he is a golf architect yet he has never even done a course but has done a few masterplans and can BS a group such as GCA Atlas...well....truth is we can all be considered golf course architects if all it takes is reading a few books on the ODG's and walking a few courses and telling a shaper what type of green you want a particular hole......How many on the list ( another thread) have an 18 hole course that they ROUTED and designed and carried thru construction while coordinating all the cost and contractors and got it thru grow-in either in their name or as the lead for a "signature"?  How many can tell you the difference between a "closed" irrigation system and an "open" system....or a VFD pump...or the proper seeding rate or sprigging rate or how to evaluate ingress or egress patterns on greens even and still keep the ODG look from when all greens were entered at the front?   I bet less than 30% of that list can get a golf course built on their own .....
NOW having been a jerk above....we all have to start somewhere and hopefully we all learn from mistakes....until we reach a point where we can get a course open without "following" what the contractor or shaper tells you...that's when I consider someone a "architect"...JMO 
I guess it sort of like saying we are all golfers...we sure are....BUT there's a difference....  I wonder if some of the signatures would be upset if we called ourselves Tour players and yet we are to consider them architects....

oh well...cheers...

[paul cowley]

Mike...I was with you until the VFD pump...variable flow demand or something or other...guess I need to go back to school!

[Mike_Young]

Mike...I was with you until the VFD pump...variable flow demand or something or other...guess I need to go back to school!

Come on Paul...variable frequency drive pump....more efficient than regular pump motor and supposedly saves power and less water hammer....now get back in class ....

[Jeff_Brauer]

MIke,

Not being a jerk at all.  There is a difference in playing in the sand box and getting a golf course built.  Most tour pros, 10 year old kids in the back yard, and even some known architects just play in the sand box.  Many others are golf course architects and have a process to get a funtional golf course built.

[Mike_Young]

MIke,

Not being a jerk at all.  There is a difference in playing in the sand box and getting a golf course built.  Most tour pros, 10 year old kids in the back yard, and even some known architects just play in the sand box.  Many others are golf course architects and have a process to get a funtional golf course built.

"and even some known architects"  hmmm....in theory I guess everyone is a golf architect....why not?   

[paul cowley]

Mike I must have missed that class...probably while taking Dry Stone Masonry...sure way to screw up your swing!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

That comment is influenced by experience in general. I have been called in on more than one occaision to figure out budgets, quantities, etc. because while the plans looked good, no one could figure out what a decent bid should be.  And, I have sadly had to do that even for an ASGCA member.

I got a call today asking if I could help out on the grading for a complex project, again for a fellow ASGCA member.

No doubt, experience levels vary and that there are horses for courses - for example, Bill Coore would not be a great choice for a mountaintop moving a million yards of dirt.  And he would probably turn it down.


We had a real low point recently at a members meeting when someone stood up and said they would have hired Bill (or Tom Doak) and were dissapointed they hired us.  However, given the flood issues, drainage issues, and some other technical and bidding requirements, I was pretty sure we were better suited for that particular job.  Technically, it was right up our alley.

[paul cowley]

Mike,

That comment is influenced by experience in general. I have been called in on more than one occaision to figure out budgets, quantities, etc. because while the plans looked good, no one could figure out what a decent bid should be.  And, I have sadly had to do that even for an ASGCA member.

I got a call today asking if I could help out on the grading for a complex project, again for a fellow ASGCA member.

No doubt, experience levels vary and that there are horses for courses - for example, Bill Coore would not be a great choice for a mountaintop moving a million yards of dirt.  And he would probably turn it down.


We had a real low point recently at a members meeting when someone stood up and said they would have hired Bill (or Tom Doak) and were dissapointed they hired us.  However, given the flood issues, drainage issues, and some other technical and bidding requirements, I was pretty sure we were better suited for that particular job.  Technically, it was right up our alley.

No doubt.

[Mike_Young]

Paul,
Dry stone masonry....wow..I bet you have to use that Cornhuskers lotion after that class....OT trivia for cartpath design(thinking masonry)  did you know that concrete wears out a golf car tire twice as fast as asphalt....take that to school....

Jeff,
Without getting started on it....  "even for an ASGCA member"  is there some reason they should know this stuff better than us outcast?  ASGCA as a group..not as individuals...has not proved to me they know anymore ....  come on you got guys that have worked their entire careers under some firm....you got supts...you got guys that have never had their name on a scorecard.....and could go on but not btching at you about it...you even got big time signatures that can't get it done....

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm glad you didn't succumb to the Orson Welles Syndrome.  When I reached 26 and realized that I hadn't yet written and directed the film of the century, I felt like such a loser, like a complete failure.  Took me a long time to recover.  What a stupid I was.

P

[Dave McCollum]

Mike young, my cranky hero.  How do I join The Mike Young Society?

[Mike_Young]

Mike young, my cranky hero.  How do I join The Mike Young Society?

I'm not cranky......just factual....

but to Join the Mike young Society send $1500 to me at my address on my website....send me the names of five courses you have seen....and an 8x10 glossy of yourself....I will see if I like your choice of courses and will have my peers decide if you are good looking enough to be accepted....if accepted I will send you some lycra whereby you will make yourself one of those bike racing outfits to be worn at all gatherings...cheers

[Mike Nuzzo]

Paul
I was 40 when we finished Wolf Point
I spent several years helping Baxter Spann - not employed by their firm
I helped a number of others along the way
I spent 10 years designing and building other stuff before I got to golf

Jeff
How would you know if you are better suited for a type of job - highly technical in this case?

Cheers

[Peter Pallotta]

The touch of genius is that fan-club members have to make their own bike racing outfits!

Mike - if Dave is allowed in, please send along his 8x10 to me ....err...at my private email address if you don't mind.

(Funny stuff, Mike. My apologies for goofing around, Paul).

[paul cowley]

P

On my 25th birthday I checked myself into the Albany Capital District Psychiatric Center as a present...convinced I was out of control and wanting them to take over...didn't take long to figure out they knew less than me.

I've since re invented myself...every 15 years or so...and that seems to work...except that in this post its been 19 years.

Damn, now I'm nervous!

Stupid can be smart my friend!

P

[Randy Thompson]

i did my first solo design at 38 and built courses younger than that for others  but if you want the real truth, the shaper had a lot more to do with the design than I did.

[Brian Phillips]

I was 30 years old (now 42) when I designed and help build my first course (lived on site for the final shaping and finishing) and it is still in business now....god knows how, as it was a pretty rough design.   

Jeff Brauer was always my "mentor" at the start and if it had not been for him and Tom Doak I would not have chanced being in the business.  Things are ridiculously slow at the moment that I have had to go back to normal engineering construction and I am working as the Construction Manager (at least I can do that and it pays damn good and is only 18 minutes from the house....) on a sports hall and astroturf pitch project at the moment and it looks like the design company we own will have to shut down.

I am working on one green at the moment and that is fun to get something done.  I have not stopped since I decided to jump in with both feet but it is a struggle now.  But what a decade I had though!! Designed and built some really great holes on some of the best sites in the world so I cannot complain. 

[Ben Stephens]

I was 19 when I did my first 'proper' golf course design work after years of drawing up hypothetical layouts. It was to extend a 27 hole course to 36 and a new par 3 course. The second golf course design work came 6 years later by word of mouth. It is a 'slow' business! and I feel lucky to get the opportunity to be able to do 2 golf courses.   

[Bill_McBride]

I hope none of you guys feel like the Lone Ranger.  I am an older guy at 69 and can tell you all that I've never seen anything like this.  I hope you are all hanging in there and doing whatever it takes to stay afloat.

We have had to do some reinvention and innovation to survive in our commercial construction business.  Sounds like you are all doing the same thing.  Good fortune to all.

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