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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2011, 10:55:48 AM »
The thing about this 10,000 hour concept is that the clock is ticking by definition for every one of those 10,000 leading to the time in years going by. Golf has a longer peaking cycle than say gymnastics.  You take a young lady who is introduced to the highest levels of training from 7-8yrs old and put those 10,000 hours of training in, and if the correct body type, correct myriad of physical and psychological aspects are aligned just right, you may get a world class gymnist.  But, all the practice after early 20 something years old that could possibly be put into the training, after that peak, is all down hill and won't even maintain the high performance peak that was gained in the early 10,000hrs. 

Look at Vijay Singh in golf.  No one reportedly puts in more training and practice time.  But, even if he doubled up on his notoriously vigorous training, he can't maintain.  The clock is always ticking and mitigates against the 10,000hrs.  The hours can get you to a peak of your ability, but you will peak, and I believe you can verywell peak well before the first 10,000 hrs has elapsed.  You may peak at 2000 hours, and this guy in the story will probably peak well within the 10,000 hours he thinks he is going to put into this, both mentally and physically. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2011, 10:58:21 AM »
In golf performance is entirely to do with training.

As I stated in my first post, I am amazed that people still think this.

You dont think putting is related to eyesight, for example? 

David, Vision is the most important sense when it comes to putting. What point do you want to make about eyesight?


I don't think anybody has provided any evidence as how performance isn't entirely to do with training. I don't see only one type of person on tour, I see many types.

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2011, 11:21:30 AM »
I don't think anybody has provided any evidence as how performance isn't entirely to do with training. I don't see only one type of person on tour, I see many types.


Padraig:
Are you limiting your point to golf only, or all sports?  Also, have you provided any evidence that performance is dictated by training and only training? 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2011, 01:03:02 PM »
Padraig,

Noone's disagreeing that it may take 10,000 hours of serious work over a decade to maximize one's potential, we're simply disagreeing about the variance of that maximized potential.  If you're saying that any healthy 8 year old child can become a scratch golfer with the right training and effort, perhaps. But that is vastly different from becoming a tour player.  I believe Tiger was the equivalent a +13 Hdcp at his peak.  So why was Vijay only a +7(ish) at his peak with probably even more man hours put in?  The industry is littered with +1's and +2's who can't rub 2 nickles together on the Sunshine tour and in short order are giving lessons to Mr. and Mrs. Havencamp and hawking shirts in the shop.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 01:05:34 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2011, 01:32:49 PM »
Padraig,

Noone's disagreeing that it may take 10,000 hours of serious work over a decade to maximize one's potential, we're simply disagreeing about the variance of that maximized potential.  If you're saying that any healthy 8 year old child can become a scratch golfer with the right training and effort, perhaps. But that is vastly different from becoming a tour player.  I believe Tiger was the equivalent a +13 Hdcp at his peak.  So why was Vijay only a +7(ish) at his peak with probably even more man hours put in?  The industry is littered with +1's and +2's who can't rub 2 nickles together on the Sunshine tour and in short order are giving lessons to Mr. and Mrs. Havencamp and hawking shirts in the shop.

Jud,

X2.  I think your post says it best.  And it also hits on the fact that the average joe thinks being "Scratch" is the pinnacle of golfing prowess.  Hell most guys I bump into on the course think i'm lying when I mention + handicaps and that Tiger is easily a +8 to +10.

No doubt becoming a scratch golfer puts one into an elite group, but only good enough to be a competent college golfer at best.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2011, 01:35:02 PM »
I wonder if Matteo Mannaserro has spent 10 years yet?

Peter Pallotta

Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2011, 01:39:29 PM »
Yeah, years ago I probably spent about 10,000 hours watching episodes of "Hill Street Blues" -- and now I can't even remember the name of that crazy, gun-happy lieutenant!   It all goes away so fast...

(Strangely, I do remember that one of the actors used to play guard on one of Coach Wooden's great UCLA bsketball teams).

Peter

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2011, 01:57:30 PM »
Pietro,

Mike Warren is your UCLA b-baller, who must be an acquaintance of Lynn Shackleford.  (I think I asked Lynn about him once)

Easily the best cop show and ensemble cast, ever!  James Sikking is your anal retentive, gunhappy SWAT Lt.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2011, 02:07:42 PM »
Pietro,

Mike Warren is your UCLA b-baller, who must be an acquaintance of Lynn Shackleford.  (I think I asked Lynn about him once)

Easily the best cop show and ensemble cast, ever!  James Sikking is your anal retentive, gunhappy SWAT Lt.


I remember one episode where they were having a toy drive for kids for the holidays.  And Sikking's character laid down his M-16 next to the pile of toys and forgot it... and then some other person comes along and says "wow, I had one of these as a kid", picks it up and pulls the trigger, and nearly kills a dozen people!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2011, 02:31:17 PM »
Pietro,

Mike Warren is your UCLA b-baller, who must be an acquaintance of Lynn Shackleford.  (I think I asked Lynn about him once)

Easily the best cop show and ensemble cast, ever!  James Sikking is your anal retentive, gunhappy SWAT Lt.


I remember one episode where they were having a toy drive for kids for the holidays.  And Sikking's character laid down his M-16 next to the pile of toys and forgot it... and then some other person comes along and says "wow, I had one of these as a kid", picks it up and pulls the trigger, and nearly kills a dozen people!

The thing that I remember is the "Pizza Man" reference. There are a lot of things that I would like to have Veronica Hamel call me but "Pizza Man" isn`t one of them. ;)

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2011, 02:38:32 PM »
Back in the day, I would have been happy to deliver that pizza to 'counselor'  with extra pepperoni.   8)

Isn't it funny that we GCA folk have our own "pizza man" character, although in a completely different context.  ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2011, 03:25:18 PM »
I know that I have spent well in excess of 10,000 hours practicing and I am still a raltive "chop" in comparison to the level e are talking about being able to achieve.

It sort of reminds me of that saying, if you want it enough and work at it enough you will achjeve it....just not true

there are factors that cannot be learnt, taught, inherited, hands placed upon etc...such a jigsaw puzzle of things that all have to go right to become a star...it is not purely time, effort and learning.

Greg Clark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2011, 03:41:24 PM »
Pietro,

Mike Warren is your UCLA b-baller, who must be an acquaintance of Lynn Shackleford.  (I think I asked Lynn about him once)

Easily the best cop show and ensemble cast, ever!  James Sikking is your anal retentive, gunhappy SWAT Lt.



Dick,

Great show.  However "The Wire" absolutely crushes it in every way.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2011, 04:32:22 PM »
In 1999 we opened a Butch Harmon School in the Bahamas.  Butch and his son were there, and they had a six foot tall volleyball player who "was going to be on the LPGA Tour" within a year. 
She hit 7-irons 155 like a machine, reminded me of Kevin Costner.
She had never played the game.   Anyway, not sure if she got her 10,000 hours in before she retired in Hawai to have babies (think she married the surfer guy).
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2011, 05:36:52 PM »
I wonder if Matteo Mannaserro has spent 10 years yet?

Yes

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2011, 05:42:35 PM »
I know that I have spent well in excess of 10,000 hours practicing and I am still a raltive "chop" in comparison to the level e are talking about being able to achieve.

It sort of reminds me of that saying, if you want it enough and work at it enough you will achjeve it....just not true

there are factors that cannot be learnt, taught, inherited, hands placed upon etc...such a jigsaw puzzle of things that all have to go right to become a star...it is not purely time, effort and learning.

Michael

What are the factors that can't be learnt?

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2011, 05:46:20 PM »
I don't think anybody has provided any evidence as how performance isn't entirely to do with training. I don't see only one type of person on tour, I see many types.


Padraig:
Are you limiting your point to golf only, or all sports?  Also, have you provided any evidence that performance is dictated by training and only training? 

Carl, all sports were physical limitations aren't a factor.

Tiger Woods is the perfect example of whose performance was dictated by training.

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2011, 09:03:20 AM »
Desire, mental control, passion,control of fear...all can be taught but that does not mean learnt...that is the thing many just do not get..
the disparity between teachnig and learning...one does not mean the other.

One can practice a task for the quoted 10000 hours and not learn it as well as somebody else..individual differences..this is what makes stars and wanna ne's.
The myelin that is laid down to learn motor tasks is not the same for everybody..just putting in the time does not guarentee the response suggested on this thread.

Read the book" the talent code ', and all will be revealed!!!!

Mark Bourgeois

Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2011, 09:42:57 AM »
I've always found Gladwell's pop sociology pretty shallow and his 10,000 hour theory particularly weak.

Amen to that.

I say with enough practice time and years of experience anyone can develop the yips.

What does everyone have to say to my theory?

From the Mayo Clinic (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/yips/DS00969/DSECTION=risk-factors) -- emphasis added:
Quote
Risk factors
By Mayo Clinic staff

Neurological yips are associated with:

    Older age
    More experience playing golf
    Lower handicap

Psychological yips, or choking, can be acquired at any age and experience level. When you start to have episodes of the yips, you lose confidence, worry about recurrence and feel anxious whenever you have to putt. These reactions can perpetuate the cycle — your increased yips-related anxiety makes your yips symptoms worse.


Paul Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2011, 09:46:15 AM »
Desire, mental control, passion,control of fear...all can be taught but that does not mean learnt...that is the thing many just do not get..
the disparity between teachnig and learning...one does not mean the other.

One can practice a task for the quoted 10000 hours and not learn it as well as somebody else..individual differences..this is what makes stars and wanna ne's.
The myelin that is laid down to learn motor tasks is not the same for everybody..just putting in the time does not guarentee the response suggested on this thread.

Read the book" the talent code ', and all will be revealed!!!!

That implies it is more of a mental gift than a physical one.  And I think desire and passion are the wild cards.  I'm not sure they can be taught at all.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #95 on: April 21, 2011, 10:11:30 AM »
Paul..
my exact point...just because they are being"taught" does not mean they can be learnt.

As such the 10,000 hour guarentee is really a falicy and in essence simply becomes a minimum requirement.
The science of motor learning is such an untangible science even many of its strongest proponents refer to it as much as an art form as a science.

I have read just about every book on the subject as the connection between teaching and learning has always fascinated me...the more I read the lore it becomes apparent that there are so many intangibles that lead to "success"...that no realist would ver get behind the 10 year or 10000 hour theory and swear by it.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2011, 01:19:31 PM »
If golf is 90% mental, then perhaps Padraig's 10% right... 8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2011, 01:38:31 PM »
Okay, I have it!
10,000 hours to hit a driver
10,000 hours to hit fairway woods
10,000 hours for long irons
10,000 hours for short irons
10,000 hours for various wedges
10,000 hours for various chip shots
10,000 hours to develop touch and a solid putting stroke
10,000 hours to learn to read putts
10,000 hours to put it all together and be a great club player
10,000 hours to learn how to do it in tournaments

Okay, NOW you're ready....OOPS  forgot sidehill,uphill,downhill,wind,altitude,and a sore back ;D

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2011, 01:44:55 PM »
Okay, I have it!
10,000 hours to hit a driver
10,000 hours to hit fairway woods
10,000 hours for long irons
10,000 hours for short irons
10,000 hours for various wedges
10,000 hours for various chip shots
10,000 hours to develop touch and a solid putting stroke
10,000 hours to learn to read putts
10,000 hours to put it all together and be a great club player
10,000 hours to learn how to do it in tournaments

Okay, NOW you're ready....OOPS  forgot sidehill,uphill,downhill,wind,altitude,and a sore back ;D

Pencil him in for the 2045 Masters!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10,000 hours tp become a golf pro?
« Reply #99 on: April 21, 2011, 02:48:52 PM »
PAT..
BY JOVE I THINK YOU HAVE GOT IT!!!!!