[ChipOat]

It's Saturday night and the kids are asleep - time for a new thread, maybe?  This has probably been done "before my time" on GCA but, in my ignorance - here goes.

Really demanding wedge shots - there aren't enough of them, to my mind.  I like them dangerous and penal where poor execution often makes bogey a challenge.  I happen to prefer them to small greens where there really isn't a "bail out" shot available although nominations will be accepted for really scary pin positions on big greens.

4 nominations that come quickly to mind:

Pine Valley #8 (left green) - In the words of Bernard Darwin about this hole, "It is all very well to punish a bad stroke, but the rite of eternal damnation should be reserved for a higher tribunal than a Green Committee".  Lots of big numbers here - especially if you miss long.  60-110 yards depending on your tee shot.  Probably plays a touch easier down the riskier left side but the green is TINY from all angles.  Putts better since soft spikes became mandatory (what small green doesn't?).
The quintessential great short hole without being gimmicky.

Cypress Point #8 - Jay Sigel said this was "the hardest hole all week" in the '81 Walker Cup.  Severe multi-level green and don't miss left!!  Don't be on the wrong level, either.  Does #9 deserve a nomination, too?

Pebble #14 - I love the 3rd shot to this (underrated, IMO) hole.  Multi-tier green akthough the up-and-down isn't that frightening.  Wish they made the approach on #18 as tough.

Riviera #10 - not easy from dead center and really hard from the sides if you try and drive the green; like to see the bunkers a bit deeper but the up-and-down is still no bargain.

Honorary mention: National #7 in the Golden Age - The hole doesn't play that long now but imagine an 80 yard niblick to that green.  You just don't want to miss there anyplace but long/left!

I know there's a lot more out there, guys.

[Tim_Weiman]

Chipoat:

Two very different examples can be found at Oakmont and Crystal Downs.

#17 at Oakmont is the small target variety.  By contrast #16 at CD offers a bailout but if you are looking for a realistic birdie putt on a right side pin placement, then you probably need to be every bit as precise as #8 at PV.  Very different looking shots, but the shot making demands may be similiar.

[TEPaul]

The best I can think of are all the short par 4s of Pine Valley, not only #8. #12 is my particular favorite because the spectrum of the options both leading up to and also actually concerning the approach wedge shot options themselves may be far more varied than any of the other holes (putting the ball from well off the green is not even out of the question!!).

Other good ones may be #6 Pacific Dunes and hopefully also #12 Rustic Canyon!! The latter may be particularly interesting because of the complete lack of apparent meaning on the tee shot!!

Another good one that has never gotten the respect it deserves, I think, is #1 Philadephia C.C. But there are so many good ones! Think of all the short holes at Merion! Gulph  Mills's #8 is very good too--a very short hole with a small green with at least three very distinct sections that are very hard to putt from one to the other on. Torresdale Frankford's #1 too!!--you better figure out how to keep the ball either well below the hole or directly under it!!

Inniscrone's little #3 is excellent too--just a ton of ways to approach that green with any number of wedge type shots!!

[Bill_Spellman]

Chip

   Now having more understanding of what is good and what is not, Did we spend any time playing Westhampton at C.C.Va?

The old Donald Ross design (1905) has three wedge sot par 4's that immediately come to mind- #13, 14 and 18.
All three are almost driveable but the more discretionary shot calls for placement, and the shots go into severly tilted or sloped greens. #13 calls for a shot into the 2 level green which has a severe front to back slope with a LARGE slope up to the second level-skip it up there or fly it- double bogey from over the gree.
#14- "elbow left from a somewhat level fairway to a small gree the slopes hard from left to right-and #18 with a green the size of a wallet and a severe slpoe from back to front

Come to think of it I think Ran and John played there as kids.I haven't seen anything about the course on GCA, but the course is 6000 yds from the tips, par 69, with washboard, unlevel fairways, as of 1986, no fairway watering system and a style that drove the James River golfers nuts! Marvin G. loved it and played it on a regular basis. I believe that it was "renovated" in the late 80's, but there hopefully wasn't much that could be done to change the layout.  

[TEPaul]

I believe #12 green NGLA would work really well on the receiving end of about a 330yd hole! There are so many really great high intensity pin sections on that green and with a shorter hole the player would tend to get so much more aggressive with them!!

I also believe #11 green NGLA would be interesting too. It would be a real wide spectrum "green light/red light" hole! The middle section would be highly green light and both the back and left tiers would be for gutsy high risk birdie options!

[ChipOat]

Tom Paul:

Actually, I wish the short holes at Merion were more penal if you miss.  Except for #8, the greens are rather large and except for being long on #8 or plugged short on #10, the up-and-down requirements aren't all that scary.  To me, the hole that cries out for more danger is #10.  Except for a back left pin, there could be so much more to ponder on that shot.  If all the back bunkers were a couple feet deeper and that big front bunker was cut into the green another yard, or so - now that would be something.

I guess I've had enough luck on PV #12 to view it like Merion #10 - not quite scary enough for the length of the hole.

Didn't recognize all the courses you mentioned - look forward to hearing more about them.

CO

Part of Merion's charm is that bogeys are easy and pars are difficult - I like misplayed wedge shots to have more at stake.

[ChipOat]

Bill Spellman:

We played it once in the mid 70's - I only remember it as old fashioned without having the appreciation for its shot values as I would today.  I wish I'd also understood the relevance of not having a watering system - I'd have paid more attention to the ground game and how it fit into the design.

Marvin always did like to be different.

Tom Paul:

I have hit downwind wedges to #12 at NGLA - I think I'd like to see some danger short of the green if that were the normal club selection.  Your point is well taken, though.

CO

[ChipOat]

Another nomination: #6 at Winged Foot West - many bogies made on this bitchy little mother and the slope of the green makes the shot from the front bunker tough to get close.

Nomination for TOO tough/unfair: #9 at Stanwich - there's about a 10 foot landing area that works and the severly contoured green usually stimps at about 13.  I can't keep it on the green and I can't chip to it after I miss.

[Robert_Walker]

There is a great short hole at Lancaster CC. No 4 I think. 90 degree dog leg right. 7iron off the tee, and uphill wedge to a narrow and bunkered green.
The Best short par 4 that I have ever encountered.

[Ran Morrissett]

From the day I first saw it over 20 years ago, the 9th at Harbour Town has stood out as an excellent short hole where a birdie or double can be readily had. The U shaped green and steep bunker walls make recovery angles very ticklish.

Last year, the infamous 15th at Fenway GC stood out, where a golfer can readily ping-pong back and forth across the green in much the same manner as the all-world 8th at Pine Valley. The pictures in Fenway's course profile show how easy it is to keep missing this 2,500 sq. ft. green  

Bill,

Very good call about the little gems on the Westhampton course. I have lost touch/interest with the place ever since they installed a contiguous cart path around this 5,900 Ross course     99% of the members there have no idea how cool the course is/was but the cart path is so poorly conceived as to snuff out the enjoyment. A real shame.

[Paul Turner]

Ridgewood 6th (Centre) is and excellent example.  A very small, skinny green that's heavily bunkered.  

The 4th at St Enodoc is pretty tricky. And the 10th at Royal Porthcawl, if you hit a big drive.  

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

I'll second the 9th at Harbor Town.  Will add:

4th at Pebble Beach
5th at Dornoch (1 and 15 ain't bad either)
1st at St. Andrews (Eden)
13th at North Berwick
4th at TPC (Sawgrass)

All I can think of for now...

[Ran Morrissett]

Also, as Tom notes, the 6th at PacDunes is a classic card wrecker but - and this is personal - I prefer short holes were the target is fully visible because, with all before the golfer, the sense of feeling like a knucklehead is more acute when you SEE the short approach shot go awry.

[ChipOat]

Ran Morrissett:

I share your preference for seeing disaster take place but the 8th at Cypress is so strong I couldn't leave it off the First Team for this thread.

Is the 3rd shot to #15 at H'Town a possible nominee?  I don't remember being struck by it but Pete Dye seems to like the strategy.

This is my first thread to which you've responded - a rite of passage on GCA, to be sure!


Rich Goodale:

I thought long and hard about RDGC and, like Merion, I just couldn't find enough disaster lurking on those holes although long/left on #1 certainly isn't pretty.  Also, a front pin on #5 requires precision so that could qualify but is the chipping and putting that tough near the front of that green?  Now, if #6 was eligible for consideration.......

Although you sure don't want to be short on TOC #1, I don't remember that chipping/putting back towards a front pin is all that dangerous if you bail long or miss left/right (only 3 data points).

As to #4 at Pebble - 2 things.  First I've never hit wedge to that green (only 4 opportunities) but, then, I can't bunt a 1 iron or drive it to Hogan's marker on #18 at Merion, either.  Second, I recall that green being much more difficult to chip and putt in the 70's before they leveled the edges by taking out all the accumulated sand splash.  You still don't want to be above the hole there but are the bunker shots from the left and right all that tough?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I love 6 at Pacific Dunes. But into the wind a wedge was not even in the maybe list of clubs to play. I did hit a wedge or 9 one day with a 1 club wind. Usually it was a 6 or more after the equivelant of a 275 to 295 drive that never saw 250 into the wind. I like the drive on this hole as much as the 2nd shot.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Chip

5 at Dornoch does not really qualify when the front pin position is used, although you do feel pressure to hit it close and get birdie. The "sunday" positions, however, at the middle of the green, where it narrows considereably and has a very fast slope from left to right and front to back require lots of skill.  Missing right requires an extremely delicate flop pitch off of hardpan.  Missing left requires a chip out the grass bunker which heads straight downhill towards that same hardpan.  Similar problems to missing 6, but the putting surface is better and more interesting.  2-3 foot putts on that middle part of the green are always very tricky, whether you are putting for birdie or double bogey.

I was referring to #1 on the Eden course at St. Andrews.  It's a fantastic green that you must find the right level on to have any chance at a birdie.

I played most of my golf at Pebble in the 70's, and hadn't realized they had changed 4 that much.  My memory is obviously fading.  I still think it was driver wedge, however.  As for the bunkers, I'll concede they are not forbidding (but I can't remember any at PB that were, outside of the one fronting the 14th).  The problem is getting up and down from them, which on a tricky green is hard, at least for me.

[Ran Morrissett]

Chipoat, The 15th green at Harbour Town has been greatly expanded in size from its original version. I haven't seen the latest version but I can only guess that much of the original exactness has been lost. Plus, watching it each year on T.V., I don't recall the pros receiving too many awkward or trickery shots anymore around it - do you?

When one talks about tight wedge shots to three shot holes, I think of tough sloping greens - and one of finest would have to be the 4th at Garden City GC. If you go long, you have just wracked up at least a bogey. Same for the 17th at Prairie Dunes.

[SPDB2]

Tom - Is the 8th at Gulph Mills the one with the rock outcroppings by the green, that is set into the side of a hill?

sean

[TEPaul]

Sean:

That's the hole. It's a Maxwell redesign from Ross's original #8 that had the green up on the top of the hill past the tees for the 9th.

The bunker scheme on Maxwell #8 is basically the same as ANGC's #7 and the green is similar with the quadrants flipped around.

[SPDB1]

I love/am terrified of the wedge shot on 15 at The Creek. I think the hole is one of the most interesting on the course, yet never really gets the attention it deserves. It's a hogs back fairway, so your never really sure where your drive will end up. The green is the most diabolical on the course, IMO. This makes wedge shots terribly dicey.
more tomorrow.

Tom Paul - do you mean Philly Cricket, or Country?

[Stan Dodd]

I nominate the 3rd shot to #6 at Cruden Bay, Bluidy Burn in front , tiered green, firm with little margin for error and if you are on the left of the fairway the shot is blind.

[TEPaul]

SPDB1:

I mean #1 Philadelphia C.C. A very short opening hole, open and with the green off to the left. The fairway is very wide and unpenal but the approach shot is a very short shot and can be very complex, particularly to the back and you can make a bogie in a heartbeat, even with what you think is the right shot properly executed! The hole has never gotten the respect it deserves, in my opinion! It is certainly birdieable but you can make a bogie so easily and you really kick yourself for it!

[ChipOat]

Ran M:

Perhaps #15 green at H'Town was enlarged to encourage the pro's to go for the green in two (I'm told it's reachable) and produce more eagles and birdies.

Rich Goodale:

I'll now be more respectful of a center pin on #5 at RDGC.  Never hit it right on that hole but, if it's like #6, I surely don't want to.

CO

[redanman (Guest)]

#3 at Pinehurst #2 may be hte best of this type I've seen.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Chip

As I shamlessely reported in my write up of RDGC on this site, I once putted off the green into the dip on the right, in the Carnegie Shield.  Lost the hole and the match......

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