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Terry Lavin

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Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« on: March 15, 2011, 12:25:08 PM »
Here's another go at a list, inspired by Tom Doak's comments about a renovation in California.  Here is my list of the best renovations in the past ten years in my hometown.

1.  Flossmoor Country Club:  Ray Hearn did an unbelievable job of retooling this old gem of a golf course.  They didn't go to Oakmont lengths with tree removal, but they sure came close on the back nine!  His George Thomas-like bunker work and prairie grass planting are just sensational.

2.  Olympia Fields South:  Some are mildly critical of the mounding around a few greens and there's some guttersniping about a bunker or two, but Steve Smyers did a terrific job of reawakening this sleeping giant of a golf course, which has long labored in the shadow of the more storied North Course.  The front nine just might be the best "nine" in Chicago.

3.  Skokie:  Ron Prichard did a marvelous job of buffing up this Ross gem, which hosted a US Open decades ago.  It is a man-sized delight of a golf course, with excellent fairway bunkering and great natural wetlands on a few holes.  The ninth hole is one of the best par three's in town and the 18th green is simply diabolical.

4.  Exmoor:  Prichard's handiwork is again observed at this very alluring track on the North Shore.  Great tree removal, more great fairway bunkering in a similar style to Skokie and Beverly (below) and a great job of basically leaving the greens alone.

5.  Beverly:  Beverly has long had the reputation of being one of the most difficult golf courses in town.  Much of the difficulty, however, was achieved by overplanting of maples and ashes along the fairways.  This gradually and insidiously led to a horrific form of tunnel vision.  The bunkering had been redone on several occasions, to very mixed reviews.  Prichard came in and cut down trees, reinstated lost playing angles, expanded lost putting surfaces and substantially lengthened and toughened the 16th hole.  There are still twenty or so trees that need to be whacked, but the Bev is again one of the very best tracks in town.

6.  Butler National:  Tom Fazio came back and lengthened the already long golf course and recut all of the bunkers, to great effect.  The fairway bunkers in particular are simply sensational and quite playable.

7.  North Shore:  Rick Jacobson did a great job of reclaiming the great Colt & Alison bunkers that had gradually lost their shape and depth.  He did some nominal tree removal, but a couple hundred more would make this place very special.

8.  Knollwood:  Keith Foster's work is not yet complete, but should be sometime later this spring.  This might be the best set of bunker re-do's in Chicagoland.  This season's changes will focus on the tee boxes, putting back some angles into a golf course that had gotten sort of monochromatic in a way.  The 12th hole is still a bit of an abomination, but that ain't Foster's fault; the members balked at changing it.

9.  Shoreacres:  Okay, this isn't a renovation by any sense of the word, but Tom Doak's gentle ministrations (a new tee here or there, green recaptures) have kept this golf course at the very top of the list for architecture afficionados.  They did a lot of tree removal as well and Tim Davis' understated but spectacular work as the course superintendent assures that Shoreacres will always be viewed as the first or second best course in town.

10.  I could put Butterfield here, but I haven't played it yet.  Most reports are quite exciting.  I could put Sunset Ridge here, but they have to cut down 2000 trees to get a mention.  I haven't seen Onwentsia, which I believe was renovated by Doak ten years or so ago.  Finally, I wish I could put Bob O'Link here, but the membership is apparently set on maintaining their tree problems, going so far as to plant new willows on the course.  Aaargh!  There's a great course under all that "hair", you just can't see it.  Bob O'Link is actually at the top of the "Desperately in need of Renovation" list that I've yet to formulate.  Another day...

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jim Eder

Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2011, 12:35:36 PM »
Terry,

Excellent list, it really encourages one to take a June trip to Chicago to enjoy this fine work............... Thanks

Rob Bice

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2011, 12:39:30 PM »
2.  Olympia Fields South:  Some are mildly critical of the mounding around a few greens and there's some guttersniping about a bunker or two, but Steve Smyers did a terrific job of reawakening this sleeping giant of a golf course, which has long labored in the shadow of the more storied North Course.  The front nine just might be the best "nine" in Chicago.

Terry-
Great list.  I really enjoy playing Olympia Fields South but have played the course only post renovation.  I have a few questions:

1.  I understand holes 3 and 13 were changed pretty dramatically.  What were the other significant changes?

2.  Was there ever a discussion of thinning the trees on 15?  Or 17?  I really like both holes but the trees seem to impact the playing angles a bit too much.  Or maybe I just can't execute the appropriate shots!

Thanks.
Rob
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 12:41:35 PM by Rob Bice »
"medio tutissimus ibis" - Ovid

Phil McDade

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2011, 12:47:34 PM »
Terry:

Nice list; here are some threads on a couple of courses mentioned from a few years ago, post-renovation:

Beverly: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41071.0.html

Flossmoor: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41166.0.html

Also of interest might be Greg Ohlendorf's IMO on Flossmoor, with some pre-renovation photos and a nice history of the club:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/flossmoor-country-club


Howard Riefs

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2011, 12:48:05 PM »
Terry,

Great list. Would the controversial $5 million renovation of Cog Hill's Dubsdread course belong on the other side of the ledger?  
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2011, 12:50:32 PM »
Jeff Goldman can give more authoritative responses to your questions, but it's my understanding that the committee and the architect didn't want to pick another tree fight when it came to redoing the South.  I was greens chairman when hundreds of big trees were cut down in anticipation of the Open and it was quite controversial at the time.  I don't think anybody misses the trees know, but I had a bunch of members lambasting me on a regular basis for a while.

Most of Smyers work focused on length, mild green expansion and dramatically changing the bunkering on the entire golf course.  He built huge chocolate drop mounds around the course, which only had a few prior to him showing up.  His work on lengthening the second hole also involved moving the tee box considerably to the left, which created a bit of a dogleg effect.  As you mentioned, the third hole is entirely new and some have criticized the mammoth bunker to the left of the green, but otherwise it has been well received.  The 13th hole was very vanilla until Smyers created a bit of a water hazard to the left of the fairway and moved the fairway to the right. 

Probably one of the best things that happened in the renovation is that (other than #3), the greens were not substantially modified.  There are some amazing greens out there, including #9 (possibly the smallest three level green I've seen), #13 and #15.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2011, 12:55:19 PM »
Terry,

Great list. Would the controversial $5 million renovation of Cog Hill's Dubsdread course belong on the other side of the ledger?  

Not in my judgment.  I think Jones did a pretty creditable job at Cog Hill.  The tree removal and fairway bunkering greatly improved the look and feel of the course.  Some of the greenside bunkering left me cold and there are some issues with a couple of the greens, in particular the 7th.  I also wasn't impressed with some of the chipping areas he put in, which seemed inconsistent with the Dick Wilson layout.   The length is only relevant to the pros, so I don't have a problem with that.  Overall, I think he did just what the customer wanted.  Unfortunately for the customer, it will never result in getting a US Open and it may have soured BMW and the tour on using Dubsdread as a site in the future, but the jury is out on the latter matter.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 12:56:59 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Rob Bice

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2011, 01:00:14 PM »
Thanks.  In a lot of instances trees are sacred until they've been gone for a while.  The improved turf quality and reopened shot angles are enjoyed but not many recognize the tree removal as the primary reason for both.  The 2nd hole is fantastic as is the 6th.  A great course and, as you mention, a superb front nine.
"medio tutissimus ibis" - Ovid

Howard Riefs

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2011, 01:10:21 PM »
Thanks, Terry. Appreciate your analysis of the Dubsdread renovations. I haven't played the course since the renovation but look forward to later this year. 
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2011, 02:56:52 PM »
If the restoration is judged by how much better the "after" is than the "before", having played both a gazillion times, I'd have to put the Exmoor restoration above the Skokie restoration.  Skokie was damn good and bordering on excellent before Prichard lifted a finger.  Exmoor was, frankly, pretty doggone sad.  Depending on what you want in a course, Skokie may be (and probably is) the better golf course, but they're now both excellent and, given their respective starting points, the restoration delta is much greater at Exmoor, IMO.  I'd say Flossmoor and Exmoor are the two Liza Doolittles of Henry Prichard Higgins's Chicago portfolio.  

Excellent point.  Do us a favor and give a brief summary of the before/after of the Exmoor renovation, if you can.

Also, what are your thoughts on Onwentsia?
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JR Potts

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2011, 03:11:27 PM »
Fazio's bunkers at Butler are "quite playable"?

Really?

I think I would still be stuck in the inside bunker on 17 if I didn't throw both by club any my ball out of that cavern.

The capes on those things are absultely treacherous....but on that treacherous golf course, they fit just fine.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2011, 03:21:57 PM »
The capes are treacherous, but the bays are so wide and deep and the sand so firm that the ball always seems to roll to the bottom of the bunker.  Now, I'm not saying that you can hit a 3-iron out of any of them, but it's not that hard to escape with a lofted club.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2011, 04:13:15 PM »
Exmoor is still the most under-rated golf course in Chicago.

PCCraig

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2011, 04:27:29 PM »
Terry:

North Shore needs a couple thousand trees taken out. :)
H.P.S.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2011, 04:32:29 PM »
Terry:

North Shore needs a couple thousand trees taken out. :)

That's the second reference that you made to the tree issue there.  I'll look at it critically the next time I'm there.  I only recall three holes where it was an issue:  the 3rd hole, the 10th hole and #14.  They could probably lose a few on the 15th as well, on the inside of the dogleg.  I've played there a lot and I just haven't felt the tunnel vision vibe that you're selling here.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2011, 04:41:49 PM »
Exmoor is still the most under-rated golf course in Chicago.


Brad: although for selfish guest-related-pace-of-play reasons, I sort of I hope it doesn't happen, I suspect that will change upon the earlier of:

1.  When Exmoor holds the Western Am next summer: or

2.  When somebody proves (maybe even me) that Harry Colt actually routed the course, ala Old Elm. 

 

Might I suggest you talk to Cirba or Moriarty?
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

SL_Solow

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2011, 05:41:04 PM »
A lot depends on the scope and the goals of the restoration.  For my taste, i am not terribly excited about the work at Butler.  He made a hard course harder but no more interesting.  Absent the return of the tour, i miss the appeal.  How do you rate Mungeam's work at OFCC North prior to the Open.  Clearly inspired by the USGA, I think he did a great job of balancing the desire to toughen the "test" without losing the character of the course or making it unplayable for the members.  Of course it had great bones but it could have been screwed up easily. 

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2011, 06:00:59 PM »
A lot depends on the scope and the goals of the restoration.  For my taste, i am not terribly excited about the work at Butler.  He made a hard course harder but no more interesting.  Absent the return of the tour, i miss the appeal.  How do you rate Mungeam's work at OFCC North prior to the Open.  Clearly inspired by the USGA, I think he did a great job of balancing the desire to toughen the "test" without losing the character of the course or making it unplayable for the members.  Of course it had great bones but it could have been screwed up easily. 

I hear your point about Butler, but the natural mission of that course is to make it as hard as it can be, so he's doing what the customer wants.  And, in my judgment, he did an artful job, especially with the bunker construction.

As for Olympia, I think Mungeam did a great job of maintaining the bones of the course and building the kind of bunkers that the USGA wanted.  The only problem is that, as a result of the technological boom in between construction and the Open, the bunkers were almost completely irrelevant because the players just bombed their drives past the bunkers.  That stuck us members with bunkers that we could easily hit into from our tee box, leaving us with the difficulty that never challenged the men that they were primarily designed for.  Ironic, indeed. 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Phil McDade

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2011, 06:58:25 PM »
Shel:

You've praised Mungeam's work at Briarwood; how would you rate his efforts there in the context of other Chicago-area renovations?

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2011, 07:05:33 PM »
Shel:

You've praised Mungeam's work at Briarwood; how would you rate his efforts there in the context of other Chicago-area renovations?

I think Mungeam also did good work at LaGrange, which doesn't get a lot of props because it's on a tiny plot of land and has no practice facility to speak of.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Greg Ohlendorf

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2011, 07:11:12 PM »
Terry,

Fun list. Pretty good golf in Chicago, huh?!?

Greg

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2011, 07:16:31 PM »
Terry,

Fun list. Pretty good golf in Chicago, huh?!?

Greg

Yes, there's plenty of good golf here, but it surely pales in comparison to New York.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Greg Ohlendorf

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2011, 07:33:08 PM »
Touche!

J_ Crisham

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2011, 07:57:17 PM »
Evanston is a course that improved greatly postreno. They certainly got what was possible out of the flatest club I know in Chicago. Some of the most challenging par 4's in town. Have yet to see Medinah postreno-hope to head out this summer.
                            Jack

J_ Crisham

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Re: Mr. Lister Redux: Best Renovations in Chicagoland
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2011, 08:59:40 PM »
Dave,  I would agree with everything you said.Would not put Evanston in my top 20 in Chicago and certainly not top 200 nationwide.  Hard to figure what raters see that we don<t. I am looking forward to the Western Am at Exmoor this year.
Evanston is a course that improved greatly postreno. They certainly got what was possible out of the flatest club I know in Chicago. Some of the most challenging par 4's in town. Have yet to see Medinah postreno-hope to head out this summer.
                            Jack

Jack, I hear you, but I put Evanston's restoration in the same category as Onwentsia.  Yes, the restoration maxed the course out.  But that's still not enough to make it great,  IMO.  So I'm with you that the restoration was wonderful.  But I'm not with on the greatness of any set of holes there, whether it's the 3s, 4s or 5s or anything else.  I really hesitate in saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway because this is a discussion board and there's no point in having an opinion unless you're willing to voice it - Evanston's inclusion in the 2nd 100 on the Golfweek Classic list is dumbfounding to me.   Nice, fun, challenging golf course.  Wonderful restoration.  Great, great people.  Wonderful day of golf and comradarie.  But not in the top 200 classics, at least IMO.    That's a pretty doggone high bar.