continued:
It's odd to me that Crump would so willing give Colt credit for his interesting solution on #5 and not much more. What would the purpose of that be? And I've never heard the slightest evidence anywhere at any time that Crump was proprietary and not generous in giving others credit for what they contributed to the design of the golf course--perhaps even the story of Chick Evans's claim is the most interesting that way.
Why do you keep repeating this statement? Where did Crump ever state this? And you can't reconcile the above paragraph, with your theory that Crump wanted to give Colt credit for the whole course for publicity reasons. You can't have it both ways!
Even an architect such as Geo Thomas (or Robert Hunter) attributes certain hole designs to Colt and I have no doubt that's probably accurate since he was a founding member and an architect.
George Thomas gives equal credit on all holes-do you still have no doubt it's accurate? Hunter splits the credit for individual holes.
But probably the most interesting thing of all is how some did give a good deal of credit to Colt in 1914, including Carr, Crump's closest friend there and then ended up giving apparently far more to Crump around 1918 when he died.
To you all that suggests is they were suddenly glorifying Crump and his contribution to the design of the course because he died.
I don't buy that at all particularly since he really was there every single day for 4-5 years after Colt--and Colt never returned--and there is a ton of evidence about what Crump was doing. Just his continuous shot testing and designing with his everyday collaborator, foreman, pro, superintendent Jim Govan is evidence of that. Not to mention the fact that if what you think is true about simply glorifying Crump's roll without fact is true--that Tillinghast and a Catholic priest are making up a story to glorify Crump because he died that would be calling those men liars, don't you think? What would appear more logical to me is to look more closely at the fact that what was done and said in 1914 may have changed a good deal by 1918 since the course continued to be under construction with the daily participation of Crump until that time--a good 3 1/2 years later.
And to say something like it's your assumption or conclusion that Crump was out there hanging around everyday for 4-5 years while the course was continuously being constructed just to watch the grass grow on Harry Colt's design is one of the more perposterous things I've yet heard.
I have construction photos and very early photos of tee and approach shots for all of holes 1-11, 16-18 at PV (I sent you some, but not all of them). I believe they are probably no later than 1915. They are very much like the final holes, the differences are minimal, and the most significant are a result of Alison's and Maxwell's work. So you have to be more specific about what Crump was doing in the later years, didn't the members want to play some golf? It's not good enough to state: "(Crump did...) continuous shot testing and designing with his everyday collaborator, foreman, pro, superintendent Jim Govan is evidence of that"-we need specifics, it could be trying to solve the 12-15 stretch (and even then 12 and 15 aren't vastly different from Colt's plan)
I'm not calling them liars (Not sure the catholic priest bit has any significance! If he was an atheist then maybe;)) . Are you calling Carr a liar for his Jan 1915 article?!
Do you think Colt (mind you he wasn't a catholic, but his wife was!) a liar for his own personal claims? He's very specific in his design input for each course in his advertisements (note the code assigment I described) and I have never found any that are inconsistent with reality, if anything he underplays his credit.
It seems to me pretty obvious that the club doesn't
want the course to be credited, in any way, to Colt-not even co-credit. You're hiding your head in the sand if you don't think this is true. Pam Emory, for one, wrote an interesting article on PV that states exactly this.
It's well known that PV had a hell of a time growing grass. I don't think that it's preposterous that this preoccupied Crump's time, after the first 14 hole were built, as well as working on the 12-15 stretch.
But to me that apparently earlier stick routing could prove a lot if it can be PROVEN to have preceded Colt's visit. And that together with supporting evidence of all kinds to form timelines on anything can certainly help.
That's not exactly provable now and if it never is then things as to who did what in detail will probably always be somewhat of a mystery--where it may never be known what exactly Crump did or Colt did. But nevertheless you have to know you really cant say that if I can't prove that Crump did something at this time it proves that Colt did it. All it proves is that one could still assume that it's possible that Colt could have done things.
If the stick diagram is before Colt's arrival then it strongly suggest that the routing was a
long way from fully being defined when he arrived in May. I agree that it shows 1,2,3,4 maybe 6, in positions close to the final holes. But the rest is
completely different and very strange, in my opinion. The date on the contour map is March 1913, so it can't have been drawn earlier than that, no matter how long Crump walked the property before Colt arrived.
In the interim, it only makes some commonsense to me that if a man spends practically six full years on the creation of a golf course as opposed to a week or two that the man who spent a week or two probably shouldn't be credited with the design of the course as you seem to be trying to do with Colt. Particularly since there's so much evidence around of what actually did go on for the 5-6 years that Crump worked on that project.
Again, refer to the actual photo evidence. I see none that suggests that holes 1-11,16-18 were changed much, after construction, by Crump. Where's the actual evidence you mention?
And lastly, although I certainly can't prove it at all it isn't preposterous to me that George Crump may have wanted that course to appear as if Colt had a great deal to do with it certainly in and around 1914. If that Ardrossan project I had ever got completed like that composite routing and design I have I'd surely not want to minimize in any way Bill Coore's contribution. I'd probably want to and try to highlight that in every way possible for obvious reasons.
I'd be interested to know what other GCAers think of this speculative theory. Those that read the Carr article.
About the above photo or Sunningdale;
"Here's a photo of Sunningdale at the time that Colt was secretary. That forced carry remind you of somewhere (photo taken forward of the tee)."
Sure it does but aren't you forgetting that Crump and Baker spent a good deal of time at Sunningdale in 1910, that he ordered survey maps of New Jersey in a letter home from England at that time and that George Crump could see Sunningdale for himself and that he might have had a mind of his own? Afterall, he, like Hugh Wilson, went to Europe for the express purpose of studying golf architecture.
It also seems apparent from what his friends have written about him that Crump had a pretty clear idea about what type of golf course he wanted to create possibly before he even found and settled on the site in Clementon NJ.
I'm not forgetting that Crump and Baker visited Sunningdale. I was just enforcing a point about forced carries.
Oh yeah- Baker, another close friend of Crump's that gives design credit to Colt
Sure, Crump may well have had strong ideas about the course he wanted. Although the mention of Alpinization and Mid-Surrey mounds makes me wonder; surely a design feature that is unsuitable to a great, undulating site like PV (Mid-Surrey is dead flat, which is why Taylor used them). Lets not forget that Crump was a novice, which was why he consulted so many experts and most obviously Colt.