Tucson, Arizona - Bottom line

[Slag_Bandoon]

 I'm going to Arizona soon and would like some local advice on what's playable for a 20 handicapper and a, let's say 'higher' than 20 hcapper.  My buddy is setting us up at the military base golf course - says it's cheap - I like that, but I obviously want something memorable for my trip into Tucson.  I see a lot of resorts at www.golfguideusa.com with tripe about each course like 'has many beautiful trees' and 'layout has 9 lakes' and 'wondrous mountain views', blah, blah, blah.  What's the bottom line most interesting, and natural course (with wider fairways) without spending more than I'm gonna spend on agave' and future wives I meet while there?  

Silverbell sounds interesting, built on old dump and claims to have wind (apropriate, eh?)
  
  Also, a Mensa High Priest I know is wondering about a children's course or a course where he can take his children to play.   Any thoughts or input would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you kindly,  Slag

   "Benson Arizona, the warm wind in her hair
    My body flies the galaxies
    My heart longs to be there."          
    What movie is that from?    Hint: A famous director wrote the music and directed this movie while in college.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Slag,
My course, Torres Blancas, fits the bill, desert but wide, good condition and scenic. Also, try Tubac, or Rio Rico; both are a little south of town, but great golfing values without the normal severity of the high-end desert courses. If you want to splurge, try golf club at Vistoso. I would not recomend Silverbell, a poorly conditioned muni, but I would reccomend Randolph Park, 36 holes of good muni golf there. Tucson is a great golfing destination at less than half the price of Scottsdale. There are some unknown gems here that you can play for less than $50 in the winter.

Don

[Mike Erdmann]

Slag -- John Carpenter, Dark Star.  Right?  

[Matt_Ward]

The best suggestion I can make for a golf course that is a good test and yet charges reasonable fees is del Lago GC located in Vail, AZ about 15-20 minutes from downtown Tucson.

This new Dick and Tim Nigent design plays 7,206 yards (opened in early 01) from the tips but is extremely playable from different lengths.

There is also a large practice area to keep kids interested in the event they don't play the course.

Phone # is (520) 647-1100. Take exit 279 off I-10, north on Vail Rd 3miles to course entrance on the left.

Hope this helps ... I played the course in 01 and really liked it since so many people usually play courses in the north of Tuscson and have to whip out the Mastercard / Visa.

[Slag_Bandoon]

Mike,  You people from Oregon are urbane, well educated, and far and away the coolest.

Love that movie.  I think it cost about $25,000 to make.  Talk about value for a buck - there it is.  

"Doolittle? It's the Phoenix asteroids. I'm becoming part of the Phoenix asteroids"
"Talby, I think I've found a way"  as he surfs his way as a meteor to his welcome death.

Thanks for advice, please keep them coming as I'm going to send this to my friend so he'll know where to go when I leave.    

[JohnV]

Then there is the alien from Dark Star.  Definitely one of the meanest little beasts ever.  
It has been way too long since I saw that for the 10th time, I'll have to see if I can rent it again.

"You have chosen to clean the elevator, the floor bolts will explode in 10 seconds."

"How are the Dodgers doing?"

"You are false data, I will now explode."

[Gene Greco]

Slag:

     Would appreciate your recommendations after your return from Tucson as I will be there in April. Thanks. Gene
                          (ezgreco@aol.com)

[Don_Mahaffey]

Gene,
Would it be to commercial if I recomended my course?
Here is a link from a site I was unaware of until I saw it posted in another thread.

http://www.golfcourse.com/search/cc_display.cfm?ClubID=14784&CourseID=15169

Lots of good affordable golf in the Tucson area.

Have fun,

[Slag Bandoon]

Don, That's not commercialism, that's pride.  

I'll do my best to make it down there.  The only thing holding us up is my buddy taking his newborn (3 months old) out to the course as his wife works and we're the babysitters.  I don't suppose this is allowed anywhere.  Do you have a cart with protective crib/trailer for rent?  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Slag,
I've got a 12 month old at home and a wife who adores babies (trust me, we're headed for our 4th), so if you come my way, you've got a built in babysitter. I'm not kidding, let me know and if there's room count me in. The price is right if I'm in the group  
Don

[Matt_Cohn]

I've played a few of the more upscale Tucson courses, and I've been to a few others.
The Raven and Vistoso were similar I thought. Both are desert courses but are relatively playable. They are both enjoyable places. I liked Vistoso more, but part of that was the lack of development around the course when I played it ('99).
I also played at The Gallery two summers ago. I don't think there's any public access there now but I'm not sure. It's much harder than The Raven or Vistoso but it's really a spectacular golf course, setting, and clubhouse.
I've been to several other courses in Tucson but those are the ones that I have played, and others probably know more about the other layouts.

[Paul Richards]

Slag:

In my book, Vistoso has to be one of the most
overrated courses anywhere.

I like most of the Weiskopf courses I've played in the past
and was really looking forward to this as well.  After
dropping the requisite $300+ for my wife and I to play,
was rewarded with a nearly dead-flat course with no
memorable features and certainly not one memorable
hole.

[Matt_Cohn]

Paul,
I liked Vistoso because it is good looking, well conditioned, and offers at least "nice" holes, and a few interesting choices, even though overall most of the holes are somewhat straightforward. I remember a short par 4, something like #14, that was well done. It is somewhat flat, but if Weiskopf and Moorish had moved a lot of dirt to give it some elevation, we both probably would have said that it was too artificial! But again I haven't been there in 2 1/2 years, so these are just the recollections that I still have now, and I'm not surprised if a few people disagree.

[Slag_Bandoon]

 I'd just like to thank all that offered suggestions. I wish I could have followed everyone's advice but I did more socializing than golfing as I was bit by a dog on my thumb, (thus acquiring ANOTHER excuse for my foibly play.)  I played Apache Stronghold - GREAT! course - even when it's snowing, yep, it did. Talking Stick North - grand day out but solo all the way; and a little shorty niner in Tucson called Pusch Ridge (NOT my choice - buddy found a coupon. oy!) that tested the putter and short game. All were fun. Thanks again y'all.

  

[Paul Richards]

Slag:

Could you expound a bit more on your thoughts about Apache Stronghold and on Talking Stick?  

[Craig Van Egmond]

Well Slag,

     Glad to see you played one course that was actually in Tucson.  

[higkgins]

ditto PRichards request for more info on Apache & Talking Stick .... have both of these on the radar for May .... nice write-ups on both here on GCA, but looking for strong recommendation from GCA'er .... thanx, Keith.

[Matt Schulte]

Am I in the minority that feels that desert golf as a whole is sort of overrated?

Unless you are blessed with a site like Stone Canyon or The Estancia how interesting can it really be.  

I thought Ventana Canyon was a supreme disappointment.  All of the hype revolves around one hole, #3 on the Mountain Course.  Having played it just over a year ago, I can remember only 5 or 6 holes.  $195?!  I've certainly paid more, but usually on courses that expensive I go away considerably more impressed.  

The Gallery, a John Fought/Tom Lehman design, I enjoyed considerably.  However, the first par 3 on the back side has a very overdone green complex.  It is too severely contoured considering the speed of their greens.  They still allow limited public play until their membership is complete.  I understand they are building a second 18 holes to the South of the original course.

The Raven is on a slightly better piece of land than Ventana Canyon.  Course conditioning has always been good.  Views are nice.  Course offers some decent risk reward holes.  For Arizona golf, I thought it was a "decent" value.

[Slag_Bandoon]

Expounding now:

  At the expense of lovers of Pusch Ridge, I'll skip any elucidation there as it had quirk and a fun meeting with a septigenerian resident of the fairway hugging condos, but I doubt anyone would ever travel to go there unless they wanted to work on their short game - good chipping was essential.

  On Talking Stick North...  Public access  ...Cost $90.00 after 1 PM Weekdays.  $130ish for regular.  (I paid irregular)  I played middle tees.
   As known, the course is very flat but is not featureless.  It is on a plane but not plain.  It is minimalist in bunker numbers but lavish in their design.  The grass was lush and green; the greens hard and very fast for this Northwesterner.  Lag putting was tormenting.  The greens were usually slightly raised and undulating and NEVER had a bunker behind them.  (Hmmm?)  If you are a good chipper you will have a field day around these greens as there is short grass in large areas adjacent to them.  I used my putter quite often from off them.  Lots of short game fun.  There are only a few holes with OB.  
  This is a very fun course with plenty of recovery possibilties - trust me.  Some heroic but mostly forgiving with options abounding.  I'd love to play this course many times as it is a "nuance and subtlety" course but I was the traveller and Apache Stronghold was next on the list.  
   The only odd thing in design that bothered me was the OB left on #2 and #3 which took the fairway right up to the fence in perfect linear framing.  I think the desert naturescape would be better incorporated if that line was broken.

[Slag_Bandoon]

On Apache Stronghold...     On my visit -> $89 for room, round o' gowf, one cool refreshing beverage, sleeve of balls, discount coupon for pro shop, and last but not least a coupon for free all-you-can-eat buffet. Oh yeah!   Traveller's dream.  
  It snowed during my round but it only made me laugh.  The winds picked up midway through the back nine but not up to "full conditions".
  This is my kind of course.  Natural, wild, no water, no houses, no extra anything.  It's get lost golf.  Safari golf.  The holes are almost completely isolated from each other between the high dunes.  Oops! did I say dunes?  Well, they're made of rock but they have the same feel to them.  Arroyos are abundant and in play.  They're fun to run through.  Like being in the trenches at the Battle of the Bulge.  
  This course is about as dynamic and interesting as I've ever seen.  The grass is green and gold blended  - beeeyutiful.  I hope my camera picks up on the color subtleties.   The greens are hard and fast.  Never a hole from a golf ball in the green, just a dent to fluff up - maybe.   These greens are North Atlantic sometimes.  The 17th green is whack. Hallelujah!  Shades of Sitwell Park.  
  When I was there, even the though designs were mesmerizing, I never forgot that I was in the high desert.
It was fun, enlightening and educational.  
  I have heard that the turf quality in the past was subpar but I was blinded by the course's brilliance.  Also, in speaking with the new Super, Mr. Mahaffey, I know the place is in good competent hands and will only give luster to a fine and unique gem.  
  This place is only 70 miles from Scottsdale - 100 from Tucson, and the drive is nice from either.  I cannot recommend this course enough.  I don't know desert golf much but if Talking Stick and Apache Stronghold are played, I think they'll bring higher expectations to Arizona golf.

[higkgins]

Slag,
I'm gonna pass on the all-you-can-eat buffet @ Apache, but will enjoy the layout I'm sure .... thanx for your 2 cents
(on Talking Stick as well)