[Jeff_Mingay]

Is a hole which turns at 90 degrees not the worst type of golf hole?

I ask, can anyone cite a 90-degree dogleg that's actually a good hole? And, if so, how so?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

I was once dead set against them, and yes, a true 90 usually looks awkward.

But I have designed a few at 70 plus degrees, sometimes against my will that I have turned out to like, such as the 15th at Tangleridge or the 15th at Bridges of Preston Crossing.

The beauty of them is that hitting the inside of the fw, whether guarded by lake (TR) or grass bunker (Bridges) vs playing safely to the outside is greatly maginifed.  Given a 40 yard wide fw, the risky tee shot is automatically 3-4 clubs shorter than the safe shot.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jeff - I think up to 90 degrees you could still get a good one, if its goes 91 degrees then probably not. A green guarded tightly with a quarry, sand waste, water could be ok as a risk/reward type. Cant think of on a common one though that is a good hole.

[Scott Warren]

The 3rd at New South Wales (some discussion here).

The 1st and 6th at Pine Valley are both near enough to 90-degree doglegs.

What all three holes have in common are that while they are safe enough for the bunter to play as a 90-degree turn, as a player's skill improves he can aim closer to a straight line at the green and reduce the second shot distance (reducing the effective angle of the dogleg for him at the same time).

I guess such holes have many of the virtues of a diagonal drive, where more and more can be bitten off for a shorter, easier approach.

The 4th at Crail follows similar lines, though slightly less dogleg than my other examples.

[Andrew Summerell]

A 90 degree dogleg is more difficult on tight, heavily forested courses. A course with a bit more width or a more open course can handle such a hole because the person who can’t make the dogleg still has a shot & the long hitter can try to cut the dogleg off.

[Mike_Clayton]

Jeff
Probably the best hole in Australia is a 90 degree dogleg - the 6th at Royal Melbourne.
It works because the corner is a ground hazard you can hit over - as opposed to trees. If trees replaced the bunkers and the heath it would be a very poor hole.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
I went to the Tangle Ridge web site to view the hole and #15 is straightaway, did you mean #14?



Is it standard practice for all architects to identify a hole like this as a 70 degree DG, or do some call it a 110 degree DG?  

[Clyde Johnston]

While I generally don't like 90 degree doglegs, I grew up playing one that was fun to play.

The ninth hole at Blair Park GC in High Point, NC is a downhill dogleg right par 4 that you could play out to the dogleg with a fairway wood or long iron then a short iron into the green. The elevation change was about 40 feet down. The right side was a large area of tall trees so the green was not visible. The fun part was that the green was reachable with a brave shot (read unsafe) over the trees. One time I hit over the trees when the group in front of us was just leaving the green. Instead of throwing my ball into the nearby creek, they put it in the cup for a "hole-in-one". They fessed up later but it was exciting for a while.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

My bad and it is 14. The fw cut is well past the landing area in that poor sketch.  On the ground, it feels like 70-80 degrees.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
After all the holes you've built I don't know how you'd remember every one.

There was a second part to my earlier post: Is it standard practice for all architects to identify a hole like this as a 70 degree DG, or do some call it a 110 degree DG? 
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I would say that its a 70 degreer.  I have never heard a gca meaure it the other way around. 

[Shane Wright]

Jeff,

Good topic.   

Maybe it isn't quite 90 degrees, but #17 at Ballybunion is fantastic in my opinion. 

[David_Tepper]

Recent thread on "Boomerang" holes:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46865.0.html

[Shane Wright]

And to answer your question "how?"

#17 Ballybunion

The tee shot is typically into the wind.  The club selection could be anywhere from a 5 iron to a driver. Long hitters may opt for an iron. The feeling off the tee is that you are going to hit the ball into the ocean. Cutting the corner of the dogleg is also an option leaving a much shorter approach, however, anything too far left is jail and possibly a lost ball.  

I apologize for no pictures of the green. But the approach is with a right to left prevailing wind and I believe a pretty sharp drop off on the left of the green.  It is pretty easy to miss left making for a tough up and down.  The beach/ocean come up pretty tight on the right side of the green.  

I love the thinking part of this hole.  It forces you to commit to a decision off of the tee that is not always easy to choose, and then it forces you into different decisions and shot shapes for the approach.  A low slinging runner could be used effectively, as could many other shot shapes.  

I have only played the whole twice, and have struggled to commit to the shots both times.  But it is stunning from the tee and I found myself thinking about the hole and how I would play it (the 2nd time on the course) pretty early in the round.  Like I said, it isn't quite 90 degree, but certainly close and probably the best I can think of.

[Scott Warren]

#5 at Royal St George's is close to a right-angle dogleg, as well, and a wonderful hole as well.

[Steve Salmen]

#5 at RSG is not a dogleg right at all. #2 is nearly a 90 deg dog leg left.

#s 4 and 5 at Crail Balcomie are nearly 90 deg dogleg rights.

[Paul Jones]

I love my course, except for the drive on the last hole.  It is a great hole once you make the 90 degree turn :-).

https://a3qdiq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pEwybkBxVh7ohw1ymHAC0Rw-bvry5bdAyiNFSduXDI5Ba8VlWvHrLPR62gIC1aLsb9jgHTkUKqMc7P5m-vtw1RDqRwotRXxTP/Oakbourne18.jpg?psid=2

I will post an image once I remember how, for some reason when I click the Insert Image Button, nothing happens.

Paul

[Andrew Summerell]

#5 at RSG is not a dogleg right at all. #2 is nearly a 90 deg dog leg left.

I think you'll find he said 'right-angle' dogleg, not dogleg right.

Actually, the 5th is a little sharper than the 2nd. The 5th is probably about 70 degrees.

[Paul Jones]

I love my course, except for the drive on the last hole.  It is a great hole once you make the 90 degree turn :-).



I will post an image once I remember how, for some reason when I click the Insert Image Button, nothing happens.

Paul

[Paul Jones]

Does anyone know the syntax that is inserted when you click Insert Image?  I cannot get the button to work.

Paul

[Scott Warren]

Steve,

As Andrew correctly said, I noted 5 at RSG was almost a "right-angle", not a dogleg-right.

I thought the 2nd bent harder than it does when I played it, but looking at the aerial afterwards it looks straighter than it feels on the ground.

4 at Crail is much closer to 90-degrees than #5.

Paul,

the code is just img not imgage

[Bill_McBride]

#5 at Royal St George's is close to a right-angle dogleg, as well, and a wonderful hole as well.

I loved that hole.  If you could keep your tee shot left you were closer but blind through the notch.  If you played safely right there is a slope thart takes you even farther and farther away.  So the choice, for me, was a blind six iron or a 4 wood through the gap, and all I could see from down the slope was the top of the flag!

Sandwich 4 and 5 is a couple of great back to back par 4s!

[Paul Jones]

Does anyone know the syntax that is inserted when you click Insert Image?  I cannot get the button to work.

Paul

Got it, just replace ( )with a [ ]

(img)http://...image url...(/img)

In case anyone else cannot get the Insert Image to work.

[Bill_McBride]

I thought the 2nd bent harder than it does when I played it, but looking at the aerial afterwards it looks straighter than it feels on the ground.

Scott, I don't have the aerial at hand but I think the reason the hole plays more doglegged on the ground is because that fairway bunker is bloody terrifying and the ground slopes toward it as well.  

First time though silly me, I thought I could carry it............

Second time through, tee shot 40 yards right.

[Scott Warren]

I think you're right, Bill. I carried the bunker in the AM and it was as thrilling a shot as there is at RSG, in the afternoon foursomes Mayday kindly let me discover the joys of approaching from 50 yards left of the fairway bunker Easy birdie!

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