News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« on: January 13, 2011, 06:38:00 AM »
New South Wales was a course that I fell in love with during my teens and early 20s - Sydney's only world class course (at the time - I hear Mike Clayton's new course at The Lakes is in the discussion) and one I was fortunate to play once or twice each year.

Then I went overseas and saw so many great courses that often in the back of my mind would be: "what if I get home and NSW doesn't live up to what I thought it was?".

Yesterday I got the chance to look at it for the first time with some perspective on board and the result was the opposite: I have an even greater affection and respect for it than ever before.

It posesses more "weak" holes than many other courses I'd rate alongside it - the new 18th built in 2008 by Greg Norman's design firm is far poorer in my view than the hole it replaced and out of character with the rest of the course, the 2nd green complex is inappropriate for a hole of 185m on a windy site, the 12th is perhaps a bit too similar to the 5th/8th (5th with wind assisting, 8th with wind hurting) in shot requirement but weaker than both and the drives on 13 and 16 are not all that engaging...

BUT

By the same token it boasts more thrilling shots than many courses of its ilk. The 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th holes all present shots as engaging and exciting as any course I have played. Just as noteworthy are the 11th, approach to 13, 14th, 15th and 17th.

The course is also extremely elastic, with the shifting wind directions all accommodated thanks to the ample width present. That being so, many of the longer holes could perhaps use a bit more interest on the drive in the form of the waste bunkers that have begun to be utilised around the course. It would be nice in a few instances (3, 13, 16) to have something a bit less fatal than the native vegetation flanking the fairways to challenge with your drive. And while I enjoy a course having restraint when it comes to fairway bunkering, there aren't the natural features in a couple of spots to render a bunker as unnecessary.

The waste areas on 4, 9, 10 and 12 add greatly to the course and as fairway hazards offer a greater chance to advance the ball or even go for the green than pot bunkers, which feature in the 1st, 10th and 18th holes - though there is a plan to remove the LHS fairway bunker on the 10th and replace that area with waste, which will tie into the waste on the LHS of the 9th. The waste areas are also a welcome addition aesthetically.

Some pics and thoughts about those shots and holes mentioned above:


The tee shot on the 3rd has recently seen some clearing on the ridge 50m in front of the tee. Love it or hate it, you can't say this isn't memorable. It won't appear so on the first few plays, but the shot is a fairway wood drawn off the leftmost of the two trees you can see sticking up to the left of the path. It's a terrifying shot and one that demands you commit to the swing - far too easy to go in with second thoughts. If you don't want to commit, there is an area the size of a cricket field (two football fields) to hit into down the right, but then you leave a mid to long iron into a skyline green. The ballsy golfer will have a wedge.


Here's the approach showing a ball in the ideal spot following a gutsy - or lucky - drive.


Viewed from the 8th fairway shows just how pulpit-like the greensite is, sitting up above all else around it.


The green has some of the most movement on the course, but is to be reshaped late this year when the greens are resurfaced. The view is the first of many on the course that take your breath away on a clear day.


This waste area down the right of the 4th shows how mantural these areas look and in this instance it guards my preferred line in, particularly in the prevailing summer north-easterly.


The approach to the 5th, which could be a 4i for your second to the par five, or in different wind maybe a mid iron third shot. The land and bunkering short is really cohesive - rewarding a long approach played with a draw to use the land and avoid the traps and protecting the preferred lay up down the left.


The par three 6th. Aesthetically, it could be better. As a golf shot, it's wonderful. A cut needs to fly all the way there, but a narrow avenue short right, adjoining the fronting grass bunker, allows a draw to run onto he green.


The 7th runs back uphill to the wildest green on the course, cpmplete with false front. It can often demand a long iron approach, with lots of slopes to work the ball off.


The 7th green (photographed from the 5th fairway) also offers a range of recovery options.


The 9th green is another that has recovery options aplenty, and the right kind of internal movement for the short approach you will have.


A tree was recently removed on the left of the 10th that has improved the hole immeasurably. You can also see where the bunkering will be altered into waste area, which can be carried for the best line in from the left-hand side.


The par three 11th, a slight dropshot with an expansive view over the course. This may be a case of seeing something that isn't there just because you want to, but I see a variation on Braid's par three template of a mid iron shot to a green surrounded by bunkers. In this instance the bunkers flank the green and the front hazard is a false front and at the back the green falls away steeply as well. A brilliant hole with an expansive view to boot!


The approach to the 13th, an example of the wonderful elasticity. It challenges equally the golfer armed with a wedge decising whether to loft the ball up into the wind or try for something lower and also he with a 4i in hand looking to run the ball up the slight slope short of the green and working R-to-L with the land.


The dogleg left 14th is just a tick over 300m. The drive offers three distinct options on how to encounter the ridge that runs across the fairway, a longer carry the further left you play as well as the miss short of the steep ridge being punished progressively more harshly the further left your line. Line A leaves less than 60m, B is more like 100 and C, with some kick off the back is likely be around 130m.


This shows the ridge from 45 degrees right of the line of the tiger tee, illustrating the role of the ridge, looking up the the bunkerless green perched up high.


The 14th green viewed from the 15th tee, showing the grass hollow short right.


The 15th tee shot is as terrifying as they come. Fairway corridor or lost ball, and if you don't hit it 220m, the second is blind and more than 180m. However, if you can hit a draw the corridor plays much wider than its width.


The par three 17th. Steep fallaways either side of the green are hidden from view at the tee, and as one of the highest points on the course, the wind is almost always a factor. The 16th is also a tough hole (long dogleg left par four through the vegetation to a well-bunkered green benched into a hill), which means 15-17, playing to a par of 11 is more like a par 12.5 for even the mid-single-figure player.

So that's that - the course I love so much. Great golf courses need memorable shots, variety (even within the one hole), challenge (that isn't always built on length) and fun. NSWGC has them all in spades. The more great courses I saw overseas I began to doubt - relying on memory - that NSWGC deserved to be spoken about alongside the Royal St Georges, Walton Heaths and North Berwicks of the world, but having revisited it, I'm more certain than ever that it belongs.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 06:49:13 AM by Scott Warren »

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2011, 06:48:26 AM »



Here's the approach showing a ball in the ideal spot following a gutsy - or lucky - drive.



I have to hit my tee ball almost over the 3rd tee at St Michael's to get it there. I don't think Pup could believe where I was aiming.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2011, 07:22:45 AM »
You got knee-length socks in the welcome pack? They must have heard your accent and wanted you to feel at home! ;D Knee-length socks are no more common at New South than anklet socks are at Sandwich!

2009 Masters was at Kingston Heath. 2009 Aussie Open? They let you on two days before?

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2011, 09:11:19 AM »
Scott,
Thanks for the teaser - 46 days & counting.  That 7th green looks like a trip.

Do I need to invest in knee-length socks for anywhere?

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2011, 01:06:51 PM »
Scott,
Thanks for the teaser - 46 days & counting.  That 7th green looks like a trip.

Do I need to invest in knee-length socks for anywhere?

John,

Yes, Victoria GC in Melbourne. I made the mistake of wearing ankle socks, and was asked to purchase a pair of knee-length socks. If only I'de known, I would have worn pants, regardless of the heat, as it is not a good look for anyone.

TK

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2011, 03:57:33 PM »
John,

I don't believe anywhere we're playing requires "long hose" with shorts, but I'll double check.

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2011, 05:25:49 PM »
Scott, did you see if the pro shop has any of the clubs 75th anniversary books left. It might be a good souvenir for those who are interested.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2011, 05:28:16 PM »
Scott,

The socks that you get in the NSW welcome package are what we Yanks would all ankle socks; they are the standard size you wear every day to work, coming about 6 inches above the foot. They do have a nice NSW emblem though. They certainly aren't the knee highs we laugh at when we see them on various subjects of the Queen!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2011, 05:32:25 PM »
Scott,
Have all the bunkers been re-done into pot style or revetted?

I understand he practical reasons, my playing partner actually lost a ball in the RHS Greenside bunker a few years ago, incredible :P

I am not sure I am a fan of it from a look point of view, do they appear natural in the flesh?
@theflatsticker

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2011, 05:38:00 PM »
Brett,

Yeah, all bunkers - waste areas excepted - are revetted. There are some quite nice shapes among them, not just all circular cut-outs. It's a matter of function with the high winds.

When more waste areas are instituted, I believe the marriage between that natural look and the formal bunkering will be a really good one. I think the club is onto a really great thing with the wate areas.

Andrew,

I didn't see the club book there, but I did see Planet Golf on display, so I suspect not...

Pete,

A few years back I arrived at NSW for a game in anklet socks (the ones that are just visible above the shoe) and the pro apologised and said I couldn't wear them, so I bought a pair of the socks you describe and paid my green fee. He handed over the welcome pack that's included in the green fee and when I opened it outside, it contained a pair of the same socks I'd just bought! ;D
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 05:43:36 PM by Scott Warren »

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2011, 05:42:49 PM »


The tee shot on the 3rd has recently seen some clearing on the ridge 50m in front of the tee. Love it or hate it, you can't say this isn't memorable. It won't appear so on the first few plays, but the shot is a fairway wood drawn off the leftmost of the two trees you can see sticking up to the left of the path.

Scott

Glad to see NSW is still an "old fav"

re: the pic above - that's a lot better but for mine it gives the wrong impression ie: you go right ?

It still dumbfounds me why a lot of the area left remains untouched ?


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2011, 05:53:10 PM »
KP,

That said, the safest tee shot - though not the most effective - remains one that is aimed over the left of that cleared area with a little draw, or straight down that mown avenue, yeah?

The players who want to dice with death for the reward of a 70m second shot have to go over almost 200m of death, but the bunter who just wants to keep it in play has a clearer path... that seems fair to me.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2011, 06:00:00 PM »
Scott

The angle of my comment is mainly for those who play the course for the first time. You could still clear a lot of the vegetation left and leave a few ti trees etc and maintain the risk factor.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2011, 06:06:25 PM »
I have to hit my tee ball almost over the 3rd tee at St Michael's to get it there. I don't think Pup could believe where I was aiming.
Not sure, it must have been pretty close to where he was aiming when he hit one into the greenside bunker from the tee. 

Scott,

You may be the first to talk up the 4th hole as thrilling. 

Hitting 'straight on the 3rd' actually misses the fiarway to the right. 

It is "almost" impossible to hit the fairway without clearing some vegetation on the left.   
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2011, 06:21:37 PM »
David,

He mentioned that tee shot. Reckons he took it straight over the ball washer beside the tee! ;D

Re: the 4th, it has a real British feel, and I love the variable blindness of the second shot and the options for playing to the green - aerial and ground. It doesn't have the outright "holy shit" factor of 3, 5, 6 or 14, but it's a good foil to the more sensational moments either side of it.

I'm not sure I agree about the necessity to cut the corner on 3 in order to hit the fairway (though if I am splitting hairs I never said that line would result in a fairway hit, just that it was the best bet for a bunter to remain in play, which it is). Having said that, this aerial would appear to suggest a straight ball slotted down the mown avenue would get you just on the cut stuff, but with a mid-to-long iron up to the skyline green:


Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011, 06:36:09 PM »
Scott

I would suggest more players tend to play with a slice rather than a draw as their natural shot shape. As it looks from the pics now - a player seeing that level of clearing for the first time may be enticed to go down the middle due to the lack of vegetation when the correct shot is over the left trees as you say.

I maintain that IMO they focused on the wrong clearing on that hole - the left side needed it moreso than the right.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2011, 06:38:02 PM »
I'm not sure I agree about the necessity to cut the corner on 3 in order to hit the fairway (though if I am splitting hairs I never said that line would result in a fairway hit, just that it was the best bet for a bunter to remain in play, which it is). Having said that, this aerial would appear to suggest a straight ball slotted down the mown avenue would get you just on the cut stuff, but with a mid-to-long iron up to the skyline green:



You are right Scott, and surprisingly it is only about 140m in to the front of the green from there.  I might take 5 iron next time.  

The first lot of trees to cut off are a 155m carry from the member tee.  Shouldn't come into play too often. I think Kevin makes a good point about getting rid of them. 

RE: the 4th.  you make a good point, the turf and lack of ability to chase a ball up thereholds it back a bit.  The tee shot is not a great shot either, in looks or strategy.  
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2011, 06:43:34 PM »
David,

I know I am in a minority by being excited by 3 and 4, but both shots on 3 excite me to bits and on 4 I think the waste area guards the preferred line perfectly. If I'm not mkistaken, visibility to the green is greater by driving down the right.

Is there a more controversial course than NSWGC within the World Top 50?

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2011, 06:44:52 PM »
Scott,

You may be the first to talk up the 4th hole as thrilling. 

David

I like the elevated drive on that hole and the left to right movement in the green is most interesting. I've seen one member of the DG go left of Lake Perrie even  ;D

I find it an interesting hole particularly the somewhat "blind" approach and for mine it's the start of a good stretch of holes but maybe "thrilling" is stretching things a bit  :)

I tend to run my approach shots into there moreso than I take the aerial option ?

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2011, 06:50:41 PM »
Is there a more controversial course than NSWGC within the World Top 50?

Bethpage (Black) and TPC Sawgrass maybe ? I think NSW GC is good enough to remain in / around the Top50....Pebble Beach in the Top10 is more controversial IMO.  :D

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 06:58:53 PM »
Bethpage (Black) and TPC Sawgrass maybe ? I think NSW GC is good enough to remain in / around the Top50....Pebble Beach in the Top10 is more controversial IMO.  :D

Good comparison between NSW and Pebble.  One thing that most of the top 50 courses have in common is attention to detail.  NSW and Pebble are the two glaring exceptions that I have seen.  If they were able to get a consistent theme happening across the course with good looking, well thought out bunkers roughs and plantings,  it would be a much better course IMO.


Scott,
I like the approach to the 3rd and the 3rd green, the tee shot isn't far from being decent.  I don't mind the 4th, for the reasons that Kevin describes, but, as he says, thilling might be overstating it. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2011, 07:06:09 PM »
Thrilling is definitely overstating it. It's really a breather from the thrill. let's go with fun and/or interesting!

Peter Pallotta

Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 09:14:13 PM »
Thanks much, Scott - lovely photos and excellent commentary.  (You and Mr. Arble are running neck and neck in this regard -- and it's even a tighter race for me because NSW is as appealing to me in looks as are the many Colt-ish courses Sean profiles.)  I was also struck that you wrote "I have an even greater affection and respect for it than ever before."  I've mentioned before that one of the most surprising results of my few years here reading about great courses is that, when I went back to a couple of old but modest favourites of mine, I liked them even better and appreciated them even more....as if I finally had eyes to see with.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 09:31:02 PM by PPallotta »

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 09:15:33 PM »
Good comparison between NSW and Pebble.  One thing that most of the top 50 courses have in common is attention to detail.  NSW and Pebble are the two glaring exceptions that I have seen.  If they were able to get a consistent theme happening across the course with good looking, well thought out bunkers roughs and plantings,  it would be a much better course IMO.

Great point about attention to detail. I have no problem with NSW being in the Top 50, although I believe it could be better. The other course being in the Top 10, well I’m not going to get into the can of worms.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New South Wales GC - revisiting an old favourite
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011, 09:29:01 PM »
Peter: Thanks as always, you're too kind. I just say what I see!

Andrew: The continuity at NSW could definitely use some work. I do think the marriage of sandy wastes and revetted bunkers is one to continue throughout the course, and in areas where some extra width might be helpful but vegetation cannot be cleared due to National Parks and Wildlife Service rules.

I'd love to be driving over some of that sandy waste inside the doglegs at 13 and 16, perhaps separating 4 and 8 a bit more formally around the DZ and perhaps flanking 15 on the proviso it replaced some vegetation rather than making the corridor even narrower.

The new 18th just doesn't marry in at all - a surfeit of fairway traps on a course that has very few, strange moguls that aren't present elsewhere and a green that shuns the flow of the land around it...

It's just amazing how much the tree removal and waste area has improved #10...

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back