News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« on: December 30, 2010, 07:49:53 PM »
Keller Golf Club is located in the St Paul, MN suburb of Maplewood.

Keller is a public course that is run by the Ramsey County Park System.  Greens fees are only $35.

Keller was built in 1929 by Paul Coates, an engineer with Ramsey County. With insufficient funds to hire a Professional GC Architect, he volunteered to design Keller on his own. He educated himself with visits on his own dime to both private and public courses around the country. He relied heavily on “Golf Architecture in America” by John C. Thomas Jr. and spent time with Donald Ross at Pinehurst during one of his trips.  He stated that he owed Mr. Ross a great deal for the encouragement given by him. He eventually did 16 different routings until he found one that satisfied him. Paul Coates continued to design golf courses in the region through the 1950’s.

Keller was named a “Top 10 public course built from 1895-1930” by Mike Cirba in his interesting thread from last summer: 
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44812.msg977703.html#msg977703

Keller has hosted more professional tournaments than any other course in Minnesota, with professional events (including 2 PGA Championships) played nearly every year from 1930 to 1980. Keller winners who also prevailed at The Masters include Horton Smith (’31 – St Paul Open), Sam Sneed (’49 – Western Open), and Ray Floyd (’65 – St Paul Open Invitational). The LPGA took over from 1973-80, with Beth Daniel winning the last 2 Patty Berg Classics. 

I first played Keller in the late 80s, and frankly it was in terrible shape. Paul Diegnau has been the superintendent since ’96.  He has done an amazing job at improving the condition of the course and adding beautiful native areas to portions of the course.  Paul has confessed that he is a GCA lurker!

The great / terrible par 3 is hole #4 which is 150 yards from the back and 130 yards from the middle tee. The hole is extremely unique and controversial because there is a giant oak tree that sits in front of the green. The oak is believed to be as old as the course is, if not older. 

1st timers are a bit confused when they see the hole, because it is so unique, and at first glance appears “unfair”.  Despite the visual confusion, a well struck iron with the proper trajectory will make it over the mighty oak.

Here’s the hole from the back tee:

And from the middle tee:


This shot from the side of the green shows that there is plenty of room between the back of the tree and the front of the green:


Here’s another shot from behind the green:


Here’s a satellite photo.  After clicking below, click the plus sign/zoom-in on the map for a closer look. You will see that the right side of the green is twice as deep as the left, making it the safest play. And you can see how much room there is between the tree and the green.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Keller+Golf+Course,+Saint+Paul,+MN&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=20.702819,62.314453&ie=UTF8&hq=Keller+Golf+Course,&hnear=St+Paul,+Ramsey,+Minnesota&ll=44.999608,-93.056999&spn=0.002246,0.007607&t=h&z=17

I think this is a great par 3! 

If you make a good swing you will probably make par. If you miss hit your ball it will bounce around in the tree and you’ll have to scramble to get your bogey.

I do think the hole could be even more interesting by bringing some ground options into play.  They could do this by 1) eliminating the sand trap, 2) mowing the rough that lies between the tee box and the green to fairway height, and 3) mowing the hill to the side of the green to fairway height. This would allow the crafty player to bounce the ball onto the green by playing it under the tree or off the hill on the right.

Maybe those are terrible ideas. After all, the whole idea is to get it over the tree! 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 08:01:22 PM by Morgan Clawson »

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2010, 07:56:44 PM »
Looks like rough hole for women, seniors, and kids.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2010, 07:58:42 PM »
Sorry but I can't agree :(.  I think its horrible.  I know I could most likely have no problem playing the hole as I usually make solid enough contact to hit it over the tree.  But I think of the hole for my wife or father-in-law and it's unplayable.  

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2010, 07:59:50 PM »
I actually like the look of the hole.  The bunker has to go.  No need for it.  I agree that fairway in front would enhance the hole, as it would add another playing dimension, as long as the course is not kept too soft.  FWIW, the evergreens right of the cartpath at the tee look terrible.  I've never seen trees growing in a perfectly straight line in nature.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2010, 08:00:22 PM »
There is a tree fronting the 17th green (also a par three) of the Meadow Valleys course at Blackwolf Run (Pablo "Pedro" Dye design).  I have three holes from Delaware Park in Buffalo that have this one beat...two are tree carries and one is a tree tunnel.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2010, 08:01:36 PM »
I agree that the tree-bunker combo is overkill and unfair.  Mill Creek near Rochester, NY has a par five (#11) that terraces up a glacial moraine, ending a brilliant hole in a tree-bunker combo...absolutely unfair to guys and ladies who have navigated the first 2/3 of the hole.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2010, 08:05:34 PM »
Two similar holes in Wisconsin...

The short par 3 12th at Janesville Riverside, a muni about 30 miles south of Madison. A simple wedge over a massive oak tree to a fairly large green. Interestingly (to me), the hole plays differently, and perhaps a tad more difficult, from the white tees (second photo, 96 yards) than the blues (first photo, 108 yards):




The par 3 6th hole at the virtually unknown Country Club Estates, a 9-hole Bendelow near his more acclaimed Big Foot CC in Walworth County, halfway between Milwaukee and Madison:

No. 6 (par 3, 180 yds)

The green sits on a line past the tree and telephone pole; the flag on this day was directly between them. The play is actually directly over the tree, to a large green surrounded by mounding.


A thoughtful reminder.





Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2010, 08:09:38 PM »
Phil,

Good pics.  My guess is the hole was built before the utility pole was installed and certainly before the tree was planted!

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2010, 08:16:21 PM »
Morgan:

The course dates to the late 1920s; I'm not entirely sure even the road was there. What I like is that the course hasn't changed the hole, despite the addition of the telephone/electrical pole, the tree, and possibly the road.

I've never had difficulty with either hole, although the one at Country Club Estates can be a bit intimidating (for me, it's about a 5/6-iron, and thinned a bit means a likely encounter with the wood. :D)

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2010, 08:17:26 PM »
Morgan...I think its great but not for most courses. I would lose the bunker as you have suggested and encourage the running game. Its as quirky as the Dell at Lahinch...good post.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2010, 08:37:00 PM »
Morgan-Say goodbye to the bunker and everyone can find a way to play the hole. It is currently an aerial shot or X.

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2010, 08:51:05 PM »
Morgan,

Into the wind, do you get a lot of balloon shots?  I don't like the idea of being forced to hit the ball up in the air.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2010, 09:10:36 PM »
Morgan,

 I don't like the idea of being forced to hit the ball up in the air.

Jonathan:

One of the reasons I really like the short par 3 at Riverside (the first set of photos I posted) is that the course offers a variety of par 3s during its 18 holes -- this is the shortest, but four holes before this one the golfer is confronted with a long, level par 3 that requires for most a fairway wood, and can be approached with a run-in shot along the ground. I'm always a bit reluctant to criticize a particular hole without knowing the context of how it fits in with the rest of the course. In this case, I think it's fine for the course to demand a target shot with a wedge/9-iron, because it offers a host of other demands for the golfer.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2010, 09:24:23 PM »
Morgan

Each to their own but I dislike the look of that hole from the photos.

Appreciate it's a short hole - but if they wanted to challenge the golfer why not just build a smaller green ?

Lose the tree - I say.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2010, 10:56:18 PM »
Bad hole -- the large majority of seniors and ladies can't generate enough clubhead speed to hit a ball that high.  And the farther forward the tee, the more clubhead speed required to achieve the now steeper trajectory.   I guess it could work without the bunker, but it's still a bad hole. 

And what's all that shade at least part of the day do to the green?

Sorry, Morgan!

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2010, 11:23:45 PM »
Jonathan,

This hole never seems that windy.  It is pretty well guarded by large trees on both sides.

The course and this hole borders parkland which cuts the wind as well.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2010, 11:44:52 PM »
Bill,

That may be true.  I haven't played with seniors or ladies at this course.  I think a decently struck hybrid would work for the shorter hitter.

My experience is that most mid range handicappers don't have trouble hitting it high enough. They usually don't hit it far enough so they end up hitting the back half of the tree as the ball starts descending.

The one shady photo was taken at about 7:15 am, so the sun was still rising.  That green seems pretty healthy to me; it must get enough sun.  Since we are so far north our summer days are very long.

Gene Sarazen didn't like the hole either. In John Daly at Pinehurst fashion he took a 10 on the hole and walked off the course during a tournament in the '30s!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2010, 12:03:50 AM »

Gene Sarazen didn't like the hole either. In John Daly at Pinehurst fashion he took a 10 on the hole and walked off the course during a tournament in the '30s!

Yes, and the tree was either a whole lot smaller or non-existent 70+ years ago!

Shane Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2010, 12:40:59 AM »
Morgan,

I've played probably 20-25 rounds at Keller with about 8 of them being tournaments.  I'm not a big fan of the hole because of the tree.  But what I have found more difficult is the trouble that lurks long with a green that is very shallow.

The tee shot has to be high enough to clear but not too long or its a lost ball.  HOWEVER, I don't think the tree should be removed because it would then become a very boring hole.  I think they should eliminate the bunker and replace it with a closely mowed approach.


Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2010, 12:43:13 AM »
I love quirky par 3's like this - although that bunker should definitely go.

Most would still go for the high lob but the option of a low shot under the branches of the tree should be available.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2010, 12:56:42 AM »
I don't know; I kind of like the bunker, because it says to the player: "You have to hit this kind of shot!"

One of the funnier lines I've ever read on the Discussion Board (maybe from Sweeney) was in discussing a long par 4 in which the writer -- tired of wide fairways, varied lines of play, and options galore -- wrote something along the lines of (paraphrasing broadly):

"Options? You want options? Here's your option -- hit a driver over 250 yards of crap and land it on a narrow fairway, or you're gonna' take an X on the hole."

Aren't holes like this a bit like castor oil -- necessary on occasion, to force the player into doing something with which he's uncomfortable?

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2010, 01:15:21 AM »
Morgan,

I've played probably 20-25 rounds at Keller with about 8 of them being tournaments.  I'm not a big fan of the hole because of the tree.  But what I have found more difficult is the trouble that lurks long with a green that is very shallow.

The tee shot has to be high enough to clear but not too long or its a lost ball. 
Shane Wright


Shane,

My guess is that they put the pins on the left side of the green for tournaments. If you hit it too long on the left side it's pretty easy to go into the hazard. Click on the sattelite picture if you haven't. It's interesting to see how much deeper the right side of the green is compared to the left.  Also, there are banks behind the green in the middle and right side to keep the ball in play.  Interesting little details...

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2010, 02:03:36 AM »
ON this one you hit over a pond, a tree and a bunker.

A miss

http://www.oceanicogolf.com/our-courses/portugal-the-algarve/oceanico-old-course/hole-by-hole.html

(its hole 4, the link doesn't go straight to it.)
Let's make GCA grate again!

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2010, 02:13:35 AM »
Disney Golf!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A great par 3! / A terrible par 3!
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2010, 03:09:54 AM »
Sometimes aesthetics alone should be THE clue about a hole and this par 3 fails miserably.  It is one of the ugliest holes I have seen a while and for that reason alone it gets an F.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back