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Ran Morrissett

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Once a leader, always a leader and there is no place to hide - you have to lead by example, year after year, decade after decade. In that regard, golf has been fortunate in that many of its leadership clubs from the turn of the twentieth century are still setting high standards that help define the best the game has to offer. Being at the Curtis Cup at Essex County as well as watching the Women's Open from Oakmont on television this year were timely reminders of two such clubs.

In England, Woking, Walton Heath, and Sunningdale all played monumental roles in the evolution of inland architecture and these clubs/courses continue to be benchmarks to this day. Be it their time tested heathland maintenance practices or how they intelligently have added length, these courses are every bit as relevant today as they were over a century ago when they set a new standard. There is much to learn in studying these leadership clubs and this month's Feature Interview centers on Sunningdale and what they are doing there as detailed by its Secretary Mr. Stephen Toon and Courses and Estate Manager Mr. Murray Long. Indeed, the focus of the questions centers more on Sunningdale's 'other' course rather than the Old.

On the New, thanks to the smart work that has quietly been done there since 2005, it has regained the playing characteristics associated with playing on an open heath, making it the perfect foil to the more treelined Old.

People from Bernard Darwin to Sir Peter Allen have always talked about 'the course where my heart most belonged' or 'the course if I could only play one more round.' Bottom line on the work that has been accomplished on the New is this: While plenty of people mention the Old in such conversations, it now seems like just as many people will start mentioning the New as it is now joins the ranks of one of those special heathland courses capable of engendering very powerful sentiments.

Yes, the New has always been respected, even feared, and is considered the tougher of the two siblings but I never really read where it was spoken of as affectionately as one often sees the Old described. That's BOUND to start changing - great holes, no weak links, a wonderful cadence, appealing peril (left of the fifth, right off the sixth tee, left on the twelfth approach, right off the sixteenth tee), the need for length off the tee and touch around the greens - the New has it all. World top fifty in my book.

Chobham Common is one of the game's magical places. Luckily, the sun popped at a couple of key moments when Joe and I went back out to photograph the holes. If anyone wants either photograph of the ravishing  :o fifth from its course profile as a remembrance of your time there, just email me at rmorrissett@cabotlinks.com and I'll send you the 2.2mb jpg. I am using one as my wallpaper and it is striking, especially when blown up to fill the computer screen. Alister MacKenzie noted in The Spirit of St. Andrews that the par threes on the New were 'excellent' and you can see why!

After having toured all 36 holes at Sunningdale this past April, a well known golf architect remarked that Sunningdale 'reeks of plenty.' What a great line! Congratulations to the membership and to Mr. Toon and Mr. Long for seeing the fruits of their labor pay off so handsomely. Their work is not done but for over a century, the game has been very fortunate to have Sunningdale as a leadership club.

Cheers,

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 05:21:36 PM »
A friend's membership of Sunningdale was confirmed in the same week he was accepted into the R&A......lucky chap!
Cave Nil Vino

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 08:52:59 PM »
A friend's membership of Sunningdale was confirmed in the same week he was accepted into the R&A......lucky chap!

Lucky you!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2010, 04:05:22 AM »
No Michael lucky him!!

Sunningdale is one of the world's great clubs with 2 marvelous courses. In many ways the New is the stronger course with fewer weak holes. The Old is let down by the 3rd and 9th and IMO the New is only let down by the 1st and 18th, neither are poor holes just weaker.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2010, 04:41:40 PM »
Brian - my understanding is you need a proposer and two seconders, your name then goes into the book and you need a substantial number of signatures of support. It takes around 7 years to be accepted, unlike the MCC where the waiting list is around 21 years.....I know that as I'm on the MCC list.
Cave Nil Vino

Jim Nugent

Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2010, 09:19:14 PM »
Another excellent profile.  Does anyone have more pictures/descriptions of the four NLE holes from the 1930s? 

Bill_McBride

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2010, 09:42:04 PM »
Mark, "MCC?"

Isn't it amazing hoe Sunningdale has done everything right and Wentworth seems to have gone astray?  Could it be the regular visits of the professional tour to Wentworth, and the perceived need to "toughen it up?"

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2010, 03:43:25 AM »
MCC - Marylebone Cricket Club

Bill - Sunningdale is a private members club owned by the members. Wentworth is a proprietary club. Draw your own conclusions as to whether that has had an effect!

Lovely old and new pictures of the 4th easily the toughest par on either course. I recall people putting off this green and turning outside chances of par to triples and quads.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 04:07:27 AM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2010, 06:55:23 AM »
Ran another (mostly) excellent review and I enjoyed your putting the attractions and history of the two courses into perspective.  I remain a little puzzled as to why professional events haven’t moved to the New as it seems more suited to their game?  I  look forward to the interview and I’m delighted they are addressing their maintenance.


I will take issue with you recommending the Sunningdale History, I find it to be a shockingly inadequate book.  The author is clearly a snob fixed with famous people associated with the club.  Only a careful read of the two pages devoted to Gloria Minoprio will reveal she was not a member of Sunningdale.  I fear you are just too nice but to claim the book is well researched …to much pre Christmas spirit?  A dew examplesThe selection of photographs is very poor. The details of the changes to the Old are grossly inadequate (there’s a thread on that on here).  A search of the back pages on here will reveal many interesting pictures.  I’ve posted these before, Simpson’s holes on what was then renamed the Jubilee Course.







This club deserves a decent history.


Ran where did you learn Colt resigned aboard ship, I can’t recall hearing  that before?  He’d been withdrawing for years.  Also you state Simpson was involved with the original “construction”.  That bound book of Pine Valley photos must be the ultimate find. As far as I know it’s lost?  Colt was still showing it at Portrush 20 years later.

Finally when you start a thread referencing a new review can you link it?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/sunningdale-new 




Many thanks (the Christmas grinch).


More old pics











« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 06:57:19 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tim Liddy

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2010, 02:52:25 PM »
Great profile. It reads like a love story.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2010, 08:38:45 PM »
Tony

Colt's PV book is at the USGA.  The pic of the 9th in Ran's profile is from that book, it was freely available for browsers about 8 years ago...but I think they realized it was worth a tidy sum and so it's behind locked doors now.

That pic of the 14th is interesting as it looks like the high mounds on the 14th are Simpson's; surviving the Colt and Morrison re-redesign.  The Jubilee 9th green is now gone, but I think it should be identifiable in the ground in front of the current 5th green. As should Simpson's  Jubilee 6th. And i wonder if C&M kept Simpson's greens for the current 6th and 7th, it's difficult to say.... a thorough review of the club minutes might reveal the details.

That pic of the 13th Old basically confirmed to me that the detailed features of that course are from Colt's time as secretary: bunkers, greens
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 08:48:02 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Kevin Pallier

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2010, 05:17:35 AM »
Thanks Ran

I love 4 through 6 - probably my favourite stretch of holes on the property and maybe all of England !!

I hope a review of the Old is to follow ?

Ian Andrew

Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2010, 09:30:20 AM »
Ran,

The interview is terrific.

I enjoyed having an opportunity to hear about their various management programs and plans for the future. I’m always appreciative when a club is so forthcoming with information like this. I learnt quite a bit from the various conversations – and want to thank them.

I had no idea that a stretch of original holes laid waiting for discovery! Having only played the Old a long time ago, I find myself tremendously disappointed having not seen the New.

By the way, your pictures are glorious in the profile.

All the best,

Ian

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2010, 02:20:36 AM »
My iPhone satellite picture of Sunny New shows a right greenside bunker, anyone know when it was put in and when it was filled in?
doh the 9th only hole without bunker
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 07:48:37 AM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Gareth Williams

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 06:54:06 AM »
My iPhone satellite picture of Sunny New shows a right greenside bunker, anyone know when it was put in and when it was filled in?


on which hole Mark?

Gareth Williams

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2010, 07:07:56 AM »
16. How much thought has been given to  restoring the original 7, 8, 9 stretch on the New as an alternative loop to the current 6, 7, 8 (and then play 10 from the original angle)?  The abandoned 7th and 9th in particular look spectacular.


Could someone please enlarge on the details behind this question from the recent interview? Where exactly are these "abandoned" 7th and 9th holes??

Thanks,
Gareth

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2010, 07:42:08 AM »
Gareth does this help?  From the book.












Some of the many Questions I’d like a new history to answer. (off the top of my head).


Park spent a long time building Sunningdale – Huntercombe started later and finished before it- what did he have to do to the ground to finnish it, why did it take so long?


Park’s original greens were much larger still, than the surviving ones that are today described as “large".  Where they haven’t been mucked about with, how much contour did they have?  Park was from Mussleburgh, but could he have been trying to create a St Andrews for the south?


This was originally conceived (like Walton Heath), by two builder brothers as a grand way of creating a new fashionable area to live.  Why were more houses not built?


They also owned the Huntercombe land, did they use that as a way of paying Park for his work on Sunningdale? 


What was the relationship between Sunningdale and Swinley.  Do the Sunningdale minutes show that Colt was also Secretary at the new club down the road?


The most important Clubs in the development of Golf in the London area were Blackheath, Wimbledon and Sunningdale. Members moved between the first two, and then onto the third? (Colt had been a member of Wimbledon.)

Was Sunningdale constructed by Carters Seed Co?  If so it any problems might help explain Colts willingness to work exclusively with Suttons form 1909.


The following picture shows at least part of the ‘Old’ course was completely treeless.  I’d like to see more photo’s to show the spread of the Pine and Birch on what was once a common.




« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 07:51:36 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

BCrosby

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2010, 09:33:10 AM »
I would love to hear Paul's answers to Tony's questions. In particular:

"Park’s original greens were much larger still, than the surviving ones that are today described as “large".  Where they haven’t been mucked about with, how much contour did they have?  Park was from Mussleburgh, but could he have been trying to create a St Andrews for the south?'

Tony -

Did Park say something explicitly about wanting to create at Sunningdale a St Andrews for the south and/or the heathlands? Do we have a basic understanding of how much Park remains on the Old? My guess - after only one round - is not much. Thoughts?

Bob


Gareth Williams

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2010, 10:41:23 AM »
Thanks for that Tony  :)

Still not 100% clear where those holes are (been trying to picture them today) and if they are in a state to be "recovered" should the club wish to. Also are they visible to the naked eye and/or one's imagination?

Interesting stuff.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2010, 10:56:05 AM »
The Obvious assumption is the 7-9 stretch looped right from the sixth green as opposed to the current left off the sixth green.
Cave Nil Vino

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2010, 01:57:15 PM »
Bob I don’t know quite why I thought he might be channelling TOC but it’s in the thread below where changes to the original Sunningdale course are discussed. But I will admit to a readiness to speculate.  :-\

This was a major commission and he wanted to do something different to the other inland courses then existing. As the comments show, some greens must have been massive.  “The London golf set” were all familiar with TOC and the idea of recreating some of its challenge may have appealed to them.  But as I keep saying more research is needed.

 
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43594.0.html
 
(sadly a few lost photo’s) 
 
 
 
 
Ran the link to the interview is (hint, hint)
 
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/stephen-toon-murray-long 
 
Let's make GCA grate again!

BCrosby

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2010, 03:35:31 PM »
Thanks Tony.  I'm around less often and had not seen your Sunningdale thread before. Fascinating. And thanks to Neil for posting the Darwin booklet.

Bob

Paul_Turner

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2010, 07:38:53 PM »
Thanks for that Tony  :)

Still not 100% clear where those holes are (been trying to picture them today) and if they are in a state to be "recovered" should the club wish to. Also are they visible to the naked eye and/or one's imagination?

Interesting stuff.


Gareth

The original 7th (pictured in the interview) was basically to the left of the current 9th (originally the 6th).  

Turn left at the old bridle path about 50 yds short of the current 9th green and it would take you to the original 7th tee.  The 7th went down from the tee and then climbed to a green roughly in the opposite direction of 10th Old.  

The 8th went farther still and turned slightly right ending up at a green close to 9th Old.  The 9th reversed direction and was played roughly in the same direction as 10th Old.  Then onto the 10th New which played to the same green but from a tee at a 90 degree angle from the current one.

In 1933, Simpson abandoned that original 7-10 stretch and took in the new land that currently contains the 6-8 anti-clockwise loop.  But he built that 4 hole clockwise 6-9 loop that Tony posted:



A few years later Colt and Morrison then basically reversed the above routing into the current 3 hole 6-8 configuration which meant they could reinstate the current 10th but from the current angle/tee.

However as stated in the interview, the original 7-9 stretch was partially in play for all this period with the 10th having its multiple tee angles.  But WW2 finally killed them off, for now at least!


« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 03:11:02 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Gareth Williams

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2010, 01:41:13 PM »
Of late there is quite a bit of tree clearance near the current 9th that I would assume to be a possible re-instatement of the 7th hole for the New. There are various rumours/stories in relation to the current lease with the Cambridge college and how the club might be making plans for a new set of holes to replace those that might be lost if the lease for the current Old and New courses aren't renewed.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Sunningdale New course profile and Feature Interview now posted
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2010, 04:48:55 PM »
Gareth

That sounds a bit ominous!  I can't imagine that land would be freed up for new holes?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song