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Patrick_Mucci

Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« on: December 18, 2010, 02:06:10 PM »
from the perspective of "playability ?

Tom Doak's comment on another thread got me thinking.

Which rendition do you favor and why ?

And, have you played all three versions ?

The Biarritz with the tee elevated above the green ?         Yale

The Biarritz with the tee and green at the same level ?       Mountain Lake, Westhampton

The Biarritz with the tee well below the green ?                Fisher's Island

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2010, 03:58:31 PM »
Pat,
Yale's and Fishers, plus the downhill one at ECCC.

Hard choice. The setting for FI's is so beautiful and susceptible to the wind while Yale's high perch makes for a lot of hang time. The only one's I've played that are 'level' have been built by others.

I also really like the one at ECCC. The slight downhill shot to the offset green can be straight at the flag or bend from R to L, or a low ground-hugging shot can be bounced on using that same R to L shape. I loved the bunkers set below the fairway on the left side of the hole and I think the hole itself is a good example of Banks' talent and imagination.

Forgetting their settings, I'd take Banks' version at ECCC for day-to-day play.
 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bart Bradley

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Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2010, 04:07:48 PM »
I really enjoy the one at Black Creek. Mountain Lake"s is good.  I found both Lookout and Yeaman"s to be disappointing because the ball won't run through the valley.  The Creek Club's island version is the most unusual.

George_Bahto

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Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2010, 04:39:11 PM »
Jim K: "Just as an aside, I wonder if this hole at OM would have revealed itself if the original had never been conceived so long ago?"


I think without the expansion of the green to the rear, the creation of the swale and using a forward tee up on the hill, this would have been a great "non-Biarritz" par-3 anyhow. (there really was no teeing ground for this green before the lowering of the area for 7-green)

To better illustrate Lefty Jim’s thought here are three photos of what transpired on 13-Essex County (NJ)

As you can see from the Google Earth shot the green is angled to the line of play. I don’t know of any other one that was built this way. We added a back tee, across the cart path just off the 14th green which added 30-some-odd yards to the hole,

The hole is quite downhill (a guess? 20 feet) and there is a natural ridge line from down by the left of the green running “jaggedly” back up the hill.

For many years there were just two bunkers on the left; one greenside and the other just a few yards further up the hill. This, even though Raynor and Banks’ plan called for bunkering all the way up the hill, so every golfer would have to play across the diagonal hazard at some point. Either it was never put in as drawn or the club took the upper bunkers out many years ago - I would suggest the former because the club eliminated over 40 bunkers from the original concept drawing of Raynor/Banks.

The were never any bunkers on the right of the green

We (re-)established the bunkers up the hill and added the new tee to lengthen the hole
                                 .

As I said, the club restricted the original R/ B bunker plan, mucho!!

Looking at the drawing you will notice the interesting bunkering on the Double Plateau 16th!  All I ever knew there was the greenside bunkers. We did add a PN well don the hill short of the green - of, course it is still controversial ...... it needs a couple associate bunkers near it, in my estimation.      

This is a one of a kind Biarritz (as far s I know) as was the original inverted horseshoe bunkering on the approach to 17- Westhampton.

Google Earth present



before



construction



original drawing

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Anthony Gray

Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2010, 04:49:26 PM »


   I would say tee above thegreen so you can bounce one in if the pin is infront.I agree strongly that Black Creek is one of the best.

   Anthony


Mike Policano

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Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2010, 05:45:52 PM »
Pat, you picked a nice group of holes. They are all fun to play. For me, the Yale and Fishers versions are on more dramatic land and beat out ML and Westhampton. I have Yale by a nose since it is more visible from the tee which gives the rest of one's playing group more of an opportunity to see the entire shot and root for or against accordingly.

Cheers

PCCraig

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Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2010, 06:04:07 PM »
It's got to be Yale...
H.P.S.

JC Jones

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Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2010, 06:05:31 PM »
I thought the Biaritz looked really cool.  Like Bart, I would have liked this one from Yeamans Hall to have had more green than just the area beyond the swale:

I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2010, 06:16:21 PM »
#17 at Fox Chapel...tee level with green...when I played it, front, gully and back were all mowed to green height.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Arata

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2010, 07:07:07 PM »
I don't often play a Biarritz, but when I do...I prefer Yale...........

« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 10:27:40 PM by Mark Arata »
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2010, 07:22:05 PM »
I nominate Mark's response as one of the ten best posts of 2010.

J_ Crisham

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Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2010, 08:04:19 PM »
Of the 6 I have seen Chicago Golf is pretty neat. Blue Mound is a bit different. Erin Hills was a joke- havn't seen it post reno though.
                       Jack

John Mayhugh

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Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2010, 08:43:55 PM »
I don't think one style is necessarily better than any other. 

The one at Camargo plays just a little uphill, and it is fantastic.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 02:02:14 AM »
Pat

The downhill one at Old Macdonald is interesting from particularly a fun perspective. That said - I probably prefer the uphill versions eg: FI as it's immensely satisfying to hit a shot with just enough power to get it to the right level that the flag is on after dissappearing from vision for a short period of time through the swale.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Speaking of a Biarritz, which is the best version,
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 05:10:39 PM »

I don't think one style is necessarily better than any other. 

John,

The question isn't about style, rather playability and your preference in regards to the relationship of the tee to the green.


The one at Camargo plays just a little uphill, and it is fantastic.

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