[Patrick_Mucci]

absolutely critical to the tactical challenge.

A par 5, approximately 500 yards, downhill, then uphill, dogleg right, where the trees at the interior of the elbow on the dogleg are absolutely crucial in defending the hole.

Drives must steer clear of the right side unless the golfer has the length off the tee to get past those trees.

Right side drives that do not get past those trees must lay up on the second, leaving a dicey approach to a difficult green.

If those trees were removed the hole would become exponentially easier, so much so that some would attempt to convert it to a par 4.

What hole is this and what's your assessment on the strategic significance of those trees ?

[Jim_Coleman]

Rolling Green #18.  Except it is a par four from the shorter "championship black" tee.  It's a longer par 5 from the "whites" and "blues."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

No, it's not # 18 at Rolling Green.

Is Nelson still there ?
If so, tell him that I said, "hello"

[Jim_Coleman]

Mike:
   Yes, it is #18 at Rolling Green.  It might be some other hole too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike:
   Yes, it is #18 at Rolling Green.  It might be some other hole too.

Jim,

It's not # 18 at Rolling Green.

The hole is a par 5.

As a hint, it comes early in the round

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Seminole #3.  Couldn't believe how far left I had to keep it to not be blocked on my 2nd shot

[Jim_Coleman]

    I hate to be annoying, but #18 at RG has been a par five for all for 80 years, and is a par 5 now for 95% of the players.  This is hardly important, but, as my wife might tell you, I like having the last word.  Mike, you have perfectly described RG's 18th hole, apparently along with some other hole.

[Mark McKeever]

I know its not early in the round, but the par 5 13th at Lancaster CC definitely fits that title.  The trees that defend the corner of the dogleg are a big part of the challenge and strategy of the hole.

Mark

[Paul Jones]

Do you have a picture?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Seminole #3.  Couldn't believe how far left I had to keep it to not be blocked on my 2nd shot

Wayne,

You're correct.

It's amazing how critical of a factor that little row of trees is.

If you can't get past them, and the wind certainly influences that outcome, you really have to steer wide of them.

I tell golfers to aim at the right corner of the left side fairway bunker.
Even if you hit it in that bunker, you can advance the ball a decent distance up the fairway, leaving you a less demanding approach.

Drives hit down the right side that don't clear the trees also have the prospect of ending up in the right side bunkers, which has disastrous results.

That litte row of trees has an absolutely enormous impact on the planning and playing of that hole.

Without them, a tremendous amount of the challenge would be lost.

[Dan Boerger]

2 great holes in the Philly region that, IMO, are enhanced by the "bunker in the sky" are:

#4 Merion -- it forces you confront the fairway bunker on the left on your tee shot. There's no bailing out.

#7 Aronimink -- This shortish and slight dogleg right is made more challenging with the large Oak (Ash maybe) about 210 yards out, 15 yards deep in right rough. Any wayward right side tee shot will force the player to punch out into the fairway or take their chances with a low approach shot to a difficult green complex.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Dan -

For that matter, so would that cluster of trees on #6; although, I've definitely seen really LONG guys go over it.  For us regular guys, it sureluy tells which way you don't want to go.

[mike_malone]

  Jim,

     I hear talk that RG might remove trees on that right side of #18.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

  Jim,

     I hear talk that RG might remove trees on that right side of #18.

Mayday,

If the trees are so critical to the tactical challenge, why would they remove them ?

I can't imagine the trees on # 3 at Seminole being removed.
 

[mike_malone]

    The intelligentia wants to make it a par four and see the trees as causing too awkward a turn.  I think the use of a batch of trees to create doglegs is fabulous.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday,

I think the problem that exists for many "olde" doglegs is that modern technology has rendered them disfunctional in terms of tactical intent.

Golfers are bombing the ball prodigious distances and bunkers at the interior elbow are no longer effective as a tactical defense.

Some golf courses have declared parallel holes as "out of bounds" in order to prevent golfers from flying over architectural Maginot lines.

Seminole is one of them on # 3.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Pat -

re: Seminole #3: I don't remember the OB on... I take it it's on the right-hand side between 3 and 4?

Another example of trying to contain players from playing down a different fairway is Olympic-Lake's #5... there's a two new row of trees (Cypress?) that were planted w/in the past 3-4 yrs. (1. between the 4th green and 5th teebox; 2. further down the fairway at around 40 yds. short & right of the 5th green) that, when fully grown, I think are meant to deter players from playing back down the 4th fairway thus cutting off the dog-leg right 5th. 

WW

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

Playing down # 4 at Seminole, when playing # 3 definitely creates a safety hazard.

I suspect, before distance got out of control, that it was rarely considered.
But today, with hi-tech distance, it's a viable alternative and that's why I believe they declared # 4 OB.

[Sean Leary]

Would love to see a pic of this hole if anyone has one..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

I wish I could post the Donald Ross schematic along with timed aerials.

You might want to try Google Earth for a good view.

The course is in Juno Beach, FL and I think the Zip Code is 33408

What can't be seen is the prevailing winds, usually out of the SSE to E, but, occassionally out of all 360 degrees.

It's a wonderful hole, especially when you consider the rather pronounced back to front slope of the green and the mini-terrace at the top of the green.

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