[Mark_Rowlinson]

It's ten years since RTJ Snr died. How do we perceive him now? How will he be thought of in another ten years' time?

The compilers of the first World Atlas of Golf in 1976 saw fit to include a high proportion of his courses world wide. When we compiled the most recent Atlas he hardly featured. Were we wrong?

[David Stamm]

I don't think RTJ's courses have "aged" well. I like some of his original designs that I've played, but when seen in the context of "classical" architecture, it leaves something to be desired I think. His courses certainly appeal to better players becasue of their typical difficulty. It always gives me a chuckle when I hear some players say that Spyglass Hill, for example, is a better course than Pebble Beach because of this very reason. I think RTJ was a solid architect, but for man who has designed so many courses, it seems he is more known today for the malpractice that he's performed on courses that were hosting a major championship event rather than his original design work, which doesn't seem to conjure up a top heavy list of great courses in ones own mind when thinking about it.

[Bill_McBride]

I see RTJ Sr as the the leader during the interregnum between the Classic Age designers and the modern designers who I think exemplify that Classic Age.  RTJ came up under Stanley Thompson, one of the best of the Classic age guys in terms of lay of the land, but I think two factors led to his building courses that have not stood up as well as those of his predecessors.

One was the availability of heavy construction equipment that led to big and sometimes artificial-looking features.  Runway tees, giant lakes, etc etc.

The other factor might be his reputation for renovating U.S. Open courses to make them longer, narrower and tougher.  Was it Sam Snead who said you had to walk the fairways at one of those courses (Oakland Hills?) "single file?"

I think those were the primary factors that led RTJ away from his roots in the Classic Age and led to the forgettability of many of his courses in this age of modern Neo-Classicism.

[Jim Eder]

I don't think you were wrong at all. They just seem to lack that "something special". When one gets spoiled by Tillinghast and Thomas and Doak and C&C it is tough to get excited by RTJ. I recently read "Golf by Design" and thought about many of his courses and holes and though I may be a bit too harsh I don't desire to go out and play them like the classics. What exactly are they lacking? I struggle, the bunkering is good but not great, maybe he lacked a bit of imagination. I agree with David, Spyglass doesn't do it for me but Pebble is wonderful. Why? Is it the bunkering, angles, or greensites? Or is it the history that leads to the romance of the classics and which is lacking at many RTJ courses? I don't exactly know what it is but I know it is not the difficulty of the courses. I am interested in seeing the others thoughts in order to understand mine better but I do know that I prefer the classics (new and old) over the decent RTJ courses.

[Ian Andrew]

It's ten years since RTJ Snr died. How do we perceive him now? How will he be thought of in another ten years' time?

Mark,

I think the work that he did was solid, but I also think the style of architecture that he ushered in has turned out to be disappointing when you compare the greatest courses from that period against the greatest from the era before or the era after.
 
Historically he is extremely important since he founded, defined and dominated the Modern Movement in golf architecture. His legacy touched all architecture for at least thirty years and arguably fifty.

When you think backwards to that time, he introduced a new philosophy to architecture that was widely embraced and he brought a great deal of attention to the designer as a person of interest. You could argue that he was the first celebrity golf architect and that much of our culture of celebrity designers is built from his legacy.

The compilers of the first World Atlas of Golf in 1976 saw fit to include a high proportion of his courses world wide. When we compiled the most recent Atlas he hardly featured. Were we wrong?

No, he was very much in vogue and the biggest thing in golf design still. Modernization was far more popular than looking back in fond remembrance of the past. The current movement has such deep roots in the past that it has all of us looking back and appreciated past decades as much as this one.

I think the book has rightfully reflected the times.

[Matt_Ward]

A few of his designs have held up well.

Mauna Kea on the Big Island comes to mind.

The legacy is tied to the fact that RTJ created the celebrity designer. Out of the shadows through a constant PR program (hats off to the late Red Hoffman) and the idea that like the British Empire the sun never sets on a RTJ design.

[Peter Pallotta]

Very good post, Ian.  (Btw - for a fellow who bemoans the fact that he isn't a good writer, you consistently show yourself to be an excellent communicator).

Mark: my guess is that RTJ Snr will be increasingly valued and appreciated.  His professional ethos was perhaps less clear-cut/idealized than that of some of the architects we favour here; but a body of work such as his speaks to the depth of that ethos.  

And in that context, while I don't think you were wrong in not highlighting RTJ in the most recent WAoG, I think you would be wrong if you did not highlight him in the 2030 WAoG.

Peter

[A.G._Crockett]

I haven't been fond of the RTJ Sr. courses that I've played, which admittedly is not a large number.

But then there is Peachtree, which makes up in spades for the stuff I wasn't wild about.

[Mark Pritchett]

History has a way of repeating itself and I would not be the least bit surprised if there is a RTJ, Sr. Society created to restore and/or preserve his courses in the future. 

I grew up playing a RTJ, Sr. course and have fond memories of it.

[Gib_Papazian]

Gentlemen,

I think it is a fair statement to group Mauna Kea and Spyglass Hill as a representative sample of Bob Jones Sr.'s work - which I think gets confused with Bobby's work. "Golf By Design" is the work of R.T. Jones Jr. - and although I will defend his work to the death as being grossly under-appreciated by the USGA drones who worship at the repetitive shrine of all things Rees and his "connection" with David Fay - there is a stylistic chasm between the finished offerings of father and son.

Bobby once admitted to me that he added quite a bit of detail to Spyglass while still under the purview of his father. However, Spyglass is unquestionably a Jones Sr. expression and Jr.'s contribution is on the level of Ralph Barton under Seth Raynor - a learned finishing carpenter who polished off the rough edges but whose contributions are on a micro scale and certainly not a decision-maker standing back on a macro level.

Oddly, I personally gave Jones Sr. his very last "on-camera" interview before his passing at the groundbreaking at Winchester G &CC. Senior is given design credit, but I promise you that Bobby and his staff designed and built the golf course. Maybe the great one made an odd suggestion, but the office in Palo Alto is a long way from his father's dual residences in New Jersey and Florida.

I take issue with those who do not seem to grasp the strategic content of Spyglass; in fact, I dismiss their dismissal because too many golfers are too proud or too stupid to play the appropriate tees in which to enjoy the challenges presented. For a short-penis, slap-shot twit like me - which comprises the majority of the Treehouse - the white tees at 6250 yards are a wildly entertaining intellectual exercise.

My experience tells me that this sliver of wisdom applies to most all of his courses I have played.

Go back one or two tee boxes at your own peril. At this point, entertainment morphs into an exercise in trying to mate with an angry raccoon - which reminds me of an experience several years ago where the coming was hardly worth the drumming.

I've written a hole-by-hole analysis of how to navigate Spyglass in a low number from the appropriate tees, but I am interested in how the other Treehouse sitters dissect the golf course from a strategic - and perhaps aesthetic - standpoint.

You first.      

[Andy Troeger]

I wouldn't be surprised if RTJ Senior perhaps was too highly thought of for awhile, but I think he gets too little credit currently. Peachtree has as good of a set of greens as any course I've seen and I think Spyglass is a wonderful golf course. Both stack up just fine with the courses that are praised here regularly. Point O'Woods has lost a bit of luster to me with the changes to the 9th hole and some weather issues, but I think the version I played 15 years ago was wonderful as well. I wouldn't rank him ahead of the great architects of other eras, but I also wouldn't minimize his significant contributions.

[Dale Jackson]

There is no doubt, as Ian wrote earlier, that RTJ Sr. has had an enormous impact on GCA for a very, very long time, and that impact continues to last long after his death.  For the longevity and breadth of his influence he should never be underestimated.

I personally find myself of two minds.  Conceptually, I do not care for the themes he is associated with, "modernizing and toughening" of some of the classics. 

However, the RTJ Sr courses I have played - admittedly a small slice of his work - I have very much enjoyed.  In particular, Rivershore in Kamloops, to my mind is a tremendous member's course that makes terrific use of the land forms given to the architect, and the two Kannanaskis courses in the Rockies are very enjoyable and visually stunning, although a trained monkey could design a great looking course there, given the scenic backdrops.

I also had the pleasure of playing and officiating at Eugene Country Club this past summer and thought it a very good course.  I suppose to summarize, I admire his ability to craft a challenging and attractive course but the work I have seen has a certain artificiality that I think detracts from the final product.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I have no experience of RTJ's work outside the UK. To the best of my knowledge, in the UK he has been involved with Moor Allerton, Stockley Park and Celtic Manor.

Moor Allerton fills me with sadness, because a MacKenzie course adjoining Moortown was sold for housing with the club relocating in the countryside. Its effect on Moortown has been for the worse. Moor Allerton seems to me to lack character. It is unmemorable.

I don't know exactly how much RTJ was involved in the various courses at Celtic Manor. He will have been old when he began his association with the place and I doubt that he will have spent much time there. It is popular to knock Celtic Manor, especially the 2010 course, but the courses before the big re-routing exercise to create 2010 were visually fascinating and in parts spectacular and there were some very imaginative holes making clever use of the natural land contours. True, they were physically tiring for the walking golfer (but buggies are commonplace there) and impossible for the spectator trying to follow one match or another, but the gestures were on a scale previously unknown in Wales.

I have a lot of time for Stockley Park. I think it is a very clever use of a former rubbish dump. Play it on a summer day at lunchtime and you are sharing the place with office workers out for a jog or walk, those enjoying a sandwich in the sun watching a bit of passing golf and so on. On every hole you are made to think, without being overwhelmed and I imagine the trees have now grown sufficiently to give sufficient separation to the 9th and 18th holes. It gives the green-fee paying visitor the feeling that he or she is getting a taste of RTJ's tournament courses without the narrowness or compulsory carries. The bunkering is intelligent, being relevant (in different ways) to all levels of golfer during the round. They affect play from whatever tee you use and however long your tee ball.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mark,

I was busy this week, but see the Cornell Archives thread.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46756.0/

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()