[Scott Warren]

Let me call a healthy dose of bullshit on Duncan and Adrian's characterisation of young golfers and what they want from a club and their attitude to the rules and traditions of the game.

I'm 27 and know a good cross-section of blokes from their teens up to their early 30s in Australia, the UK and the US who play golf. Very few fit this ridiculous framework from which we judge "young golfers".

Simply, most young golfers want all the same things golfers have wanted from a club for eons. They are respectful of rules and traditions of golf and of golf clubs are want to be a part of that.

Clubs are modernising in some areas re: dress, yes, and that may be to attract and please members, but if you cast an eye back to Old Tom's day you'll probably see that it has already modernised quite a bit.

The "earings and tattoos" line is completely ridiculous. An ex-army bloke at Deal has a heap of tattoos and yet you won't find a friendlier, respectful, more convivial bloke to play golf with. James Boon has a few cattle tags through his ear and unless he is fooling us all he is just as respectful of the game and its place in the world as Chappers or Spangles Muldoon.

Adrian, you must have had your eyes closed a lot of years if you think people with tats and earrings wanting to join golf clubs is something new.

Young golfers are just like any other generation of golfers. There are those we would want in our clubs and those we would not. There are those who respect the game, it's traditions and rules and some who don't.

Fixating on some ridiculous stereotype of "the youth of today" to try to chart golf's course through the 21st century is crazy.

[James Boon]

Thanks Scott, I didn't know if I should say something but then I figured you or Sean would eventually... 

Cheers,

James

[Mark Chaplin]

Adrian - Mr Earring and Jeans will always find a home at munis and pay and plays, they have been here for years and will continue to happily play the golf that suits their needs. I'm a comprehensive schoolboy, joined the old bill at 18 and played my junior golf at the local municipal.

When I joined Deal aged 34 I hated foursomes and found jacket and tie a drag. Now 60%+ of my golf is foursomes, I dislike the lowering of dress standards and sit on the Board. I wouldn't say I'm a snob, far from it but I genuinely enjoy belonging to a proper club and introducing new like minded people into the fold.

Scott - well said, the soldier you refer to will happily play a round with the retired Brigadier and both adhere to the same standards.

[Bill_McBride]

Adrian - Mr Earring and Jeans will always find a home at munis and pay and plays, they have been here for years and will continue to happily play the golf that suits their needs. I'm a comprehensive schoolboy, joined the old bill at 18 and played my junior golf at the local municipal.

When I joined Deal aged 34 I hated foursomes and found jacket and tie a drag. Now 60%+ of my golf is foursomes, I dislike the lowering of dress standards and sit on the Board. I wouldn't say I'm a snob, far from it but I genuinely enjoy belonging to a proper club and introducing new like minded people into the fold.

Yes but..........about that jacket!  Is a photo available?

[Mark Chaplin]

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41549.0;attach=2801

Hopefully this will work if not can someone post it from  Chappers and the meat pie

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41549.0.html

[Duncan Cheslett]

I wouldn't say I'm a snob, far from it

Unlike some...

Its great having draws for competitions but what if you get drawn with bad company?

That comment worries me. I would happlily play golf with anyone who was keen on golf. I'm sure we could always find something in common.

I detest the cliqueishness and class snobbery of too many clubs. It will be the death of many of them.

[Mark Pearce]

I wouldn't say I'm a snob, far from it

Unlike some...

I'd like to think that isn't aimed at anyone posting on this thread.

Its great having draws for competitions but what if you get drawn with bad company?

That comment worries me. I would happlily play golf with anyone who was keen on golf. I'm sure we could always find something in common.

The benefit of being a member of a good club is that there are only a very few people that you might find bad company.  Adrian may well have a different perspective from his experience of people who don't want to belong to clubs.  And, in case there's any doubt, I can't think of a club with a more down to earth membership than Crail.  No snobbery at all there.

I detest the cliqueishness and class snobbery of too many clubs. It will be the death of many of them.

Is this really based on experience of membership of such clubs or a view based on prejudice from outside?  I'm afraid my experience is that most people who decry the snobbery of clubs actually have little or no experience of those clubs they are criticising.

[Mark Chaplin]

Lasy year I was lucky to play two of the USA's finest clubs but also ones with a very very difficult to join membership policies. At one prospective members have to play with pretty much the entire membership before they can join. Clearly one blackball or the US equivilent and your application fails.

Both clubs would seem to an outsider to be extremely elite and snobby but actually the membership policy ensures that everyone gets on with everyone, there are no cliques and the members are charming company.

My point is by losing joining fees and welcoming anyone who turns up with a cheque for a years subs you maybe weakening not strengthening the clubs position.

Adrian - whilst the white van, tattoo and earring brigade maybe your potential clients I can assure you there are many young players who actually enjoy a little discipline and structure within their golf experience. 

[Scott Warren]

Duncan,

Further to Mark P's good point about cliques, show me where cliques don't exist? They exist in schools, they exist in the workplace, they exist in sporting teams... it's human nature that a large group of people will form within that larger population into smaller groups of likeminded people.

There's nothing wrong with cliques per se. If people are rude to others, exclude them etc, that's a different kettle of fish altogether.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian - whilst the white van, tattoo and earring brigade maybe your potential clients I can assure you there are many young players who actually enjoy a little discipline and structure within their golf experience. 
[/quote] Mark- I think you must remember Deal is not your average club. We are talking about the Average Club. My posts are a little tongue n cheek and there are plenty of nice people that have tattoos and have earrings. The culture of tattoos has dramatically changed, I dont know what the stats are but probably 50% of the under 30s have one.

[Scott Warren]

C'mon Adrian,

Your generalisations about young golfers, and young people in general, have very little basis in reality. You delight in telling everyone on this site that you bring experience of normal golfers, but your recent comments have me wondering when was the last time you met someone aged under 30.

Yet even if we suspend disbelief and take it as fact that what you say is so, are you suggesting a person with a tattoo or an earring cannot also be a traditionalist as far as their views of golf and golf clubs?

And it isn't just a Deal thing as you suggest. Before moving to the UK I was a member at four of Sydney's most unremarkable clubs in some pretty earthy areas and even there my experience of young golfers was nothing like you suggest. Likewise while I lived in the UK I had mates who were "normal" golfers at basic clubs and - remarkably if we are to believe your drawing of young golfers - none ever seemed to arrive at the course fresh from a rave, ram raid or drive-by shooting.

[Mark Chaplin]

Adrian as I live 60 miles from my club you can be assured I see other forms of golf, I actually played two non top 100 courses in 2010, although Littlestone is a solid top 100 contender!

Actually Tony proves Deal isn't but should be an "average club" which welcome new members who want to join in with events such as roll ups, dinner matches, courtesies and club matches. None of these cost a penny, add to the feeling of belonging and encourage people to join and should be the norm not the exception.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Scott - You have a really bad habit of reading posts and not understanding them. I dont say every under 30 year old at all. I have a 40 year old friend, earing tattoos, 9 handicapper, could be much better, he is very much a traditionalist about some aspects of golf.
I think it is you that is cocoouned in your thoughts. The younger players will fit the patterns I am saying and I think the AVERAGE course will slide towards the courses we look at today as PAYPs.

[Scott Warren]

Adrian,

What you said in black and white is that you believe half of all under 30s have a tattoo. That in itself leads me to wonder how you form your opinions of the young.

Let's review some of your contributions to the last two pages of the thread:

Heres the problem - The new breed of golfer has earings, tattoos, mobile phones he absolutely does not want to put a penguin suit on and play seagulls. He will want to park his works van, change in the car park, sometimes trousers as well and get out with his mates.

The thought that there is an abudance of 'the right member' out there waiting to step in is quite a myth..... your replacement line is filled with backward wearing caps, in the hole chanters and ebay raiders.

I guess todays younger member still remembers Anarchy in the UK and today's captains have Never mind the Bollocks amongst their CDs.....move on 20 years and perhaps the new captains will rap their captains speech.

The culture of tattoos has dramatically changed, I dont know what the stats are but probably 50% of the under 30s have one.

It also makes me wonder why you're so fixated on tattoos and earrings as though they have any relevance in this discussion.

If the average club slides toward the current pay and play model, the number of tattoos and earrings among the membership will have no bearing on that.

As I said earlier in the thread, I believe young golfers with less time to spare have begun to demand cheaper memberships involving fewer rounds with the ability to post for any rounds they play over and above that, and smart clubs among those who need to get creative to stay afloat should already be offering that.

But in my experience, the way you are painting young golfers is so misguided it's funny.

[Jamie Barber]

Funnily enough, at our club (not member owned) they used to run different levels of membership (52/104 and unlimited rounds per year), but this year they stopped which most members were pleased about.

It might have been that the the fees per level were not set correctly, but it was never terribly popular.

Having said that it's also not a typical club, since it's privately owned by a very wealthly individual, who is currently investing significantly in new onsite accomodation and course updates.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Scott you have just done it again. I said I did not know what the stats are but probably 50%. You cant cherry pick bits out of posts. When anyone talks in a forum its easy to cherry pick the bits you want to hear. I am making a broad statement I am not saying everyone under 30 has a tattoo or earring or wears pink trousers, sometimes things are a figure of speech and should not be taken as literal.

[Mark Pearce]

Scott you have just done it again. I said I did not know what the stats are but probably 50%. You cant cherry pick bits out of posts. When anyone talks in a forum its easy to cherry pick the bits you want to hear. I am making a broad statement I am not saying everyone under 30 has a tattoo or earring or wears pink trousers, sometimes things are a figure of speech and should not be taken as literal.

Adrian,

Just to make sure I understand.  You propose a statistic on which you base an argument.  You say, however, that you don't really know but that the statistic is probably right.  You stand by your argument when challenged on the argument and then accuse the challenger of "cherry-picking" bits of your posts.  At the very same time you neglect to mention that Scott said "What you said in black and white is that you believe half of all under 30s have a tattoo".  Are you now claiming that you did not say that you believe that half of under 30s have a tattoo?  If you didn't, can you explain to me what the difference is between what you did say and that statement?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian - whilst the white van, tattoo and earring brigade maybe your potential clients I can assure you there are many young players who actually enjoy a little discipline and structure within their golf experience.  

Mark- I think you must remember Deal is not your average club. We are talking about the Average Club. My posts are a little tongue n cheek and there are plenty of nice people that have tattoos and have earrings. The culture of tattoos has dramatically changed, I dont know what the stats are but probably 50% of the under 30s have one. [/quote]Thats what I said.
My guess was 50% of under 30s have a tattoo but I did not know.

[Niall C]

Adrian,

I think the moral of this story is not to make generalised statements when you are corresponding with a lawyer and a journalist. Its perfectly OK to do so when you're at the bar drinking with your mates with the tattoos earings. I am of course jesting at your expense, however your point that you make that the standards of behaviour of newer and younger golfers is different to that of the older generation is irrefutable IMHO. Some would argue its for the worse and would be one of them.

Niall

[Scott Warren]

Niall,

What are some examples of the different standards of behaviour you see from newer and younger golfers compared to the older generation?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

Some of the young guys of today would never have been able to play on many of the courses 30 years ago. So much more was expected. Was it over the top, no I do not think so, as we all knew what was acceptable.

Something the younger golfers have not quite grasped yet.  Different standards or lack of consideration for others - most likely.

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

Niall,

What are some examples of the different standards of behaviour you see from newer and younger golfers compared to the older generation?

Scott

Now don't get all pissy with me about generalizations, but judging from experience, I believe I am more likely to see a younger member using his phone inappropriately on a golf course.  I also believe, judging from experience, I am more likely to see a younger member acting like a nob on the course, but not, curiously, in the house. I think one is more likely to see older members acting like a nob in the house. 

Adrian

I think some of us are approaching this membership business from a different angle to you.  You are solely concerned with turning a profit while the others are more concerned about club culture becasue they have the luxury of not worrying about a profit.  Breaking even is okay at least half the time and the club is never looking for a profit, more a trading surplus. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

I'm really not all that bothered about generalisations. What I did have an issue with in Adrian's posts was both his repeated suggestion that earrings and tattoos somehow had some relevance in this discussion and also his decision to invent a statistic to support what was really a moot point, then accuse me of cherry picking from his posts and having "a really bad habit of reading posts and not understanding them" when he was called on it.

I'm not fussed if people want to generalise about certain demographics based on fact and experience, and I'd be inclined to agree with your suggestions above.

[Duncan Betts]

I'm 29 and have a tatoo on my ankle, but I'm quite certain I know how to behave at a Golf Club.  I don't recall getting the tatoo though, one of those times celebrations of victory go a bit too far....  If it weren't on my ankle, I'd have had it removed by now.

I'm a bit of a snob though, I don't like these upwardly mobile 20 somethings inflitrating the elite clubs 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean,

I'm really not all that bothered about generalisations. What I did have an issue with in Adrian's posts was both his repeated suggestion that earrings and tattoos somehow had some relevance in this discussion and also his decision to invent a statistic to support what was really a moot point, then accuse me of cherry picking from his posts and having "a really bad habit of reading posts and not understanding them" when he was called on it.

I'm not fussed if people want to generalise about certain demographics based on fact and experience, and I'd be inclined to agree with your suggestions above.

You misread my posts Scott and you twist words  "I invented a statistic". At all times I pointed out I was generalising and the earrings and tattoos were tongue in cheek, but you cherry picked.... Dress codes have dropped, but whilst some find knee length socks appropriate and short socks not, some will find tattoed arms offensive, but the truth is more and more people have tattoos I said it was 50% but I did say I was guessing do you think 50% is miles out? I think we have to please as many people as possible to make golf work and it will need relaxed rules, mobile phones yes you can have them on the course, if someone has a tattoo so what.
Sean - No, I am not thinking of my situation at all. I am looking at an average course and its ability to become stable in this difficult market.

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