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Sean_A

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2010, 03:59:48 AM »
Spangles

Yes, I really like the sound of the "formal" social golf at Deal.  The club certainly seems to have quite a bit of life especially when compared to many of the old line clubs. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

James Boon

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2010, 04:00:57 AM »

Duncan,

Cavendish seems to have a good spread of options there! When I spotted the "No Joining Fee" and the "£347 over 50 miles" had me rushing to Google Maps to check the distance from my house and contemplating joining. Alas, I'm only 35 miles away, so the £620 would be too much for me I'm afraid  :( It would have meant giving up my other country membership down at Burnham which would have been a tough call, but the "No Joining Fee" really makes things tempting!

Cheers,

James

So have a word with the secretary or manager and offer say £450.  In my recent experience clubs are ready to negotiate.

Damn you Duncan, putting more ideas in my head!  ;D

The interesting thing for me is that a course I really enjoy has no joining fee and suddenley I'm tempted. The thing stopping me is that its only been about 5 years or so since I joined Burnham as a country member and having paid a joining fee there, I'm reluctant to give that up. I have recently left a club I was at since I was a kid and am in the process of joining another, but was happy to leave the previous club as having been a member there for 20 years I feel I (well my dad actually) got my monies worth!

I can see Adrian's point that to get rid of joining fees is a big hit, but it reminds me a bit of when a football club is struggling for attendance so they really lower the ticket price. They then get more people through the turnstiles who are happy to buy drinks and pies and maybe get a shirt in the shop.

Having said that some clubs will always be able to charge a joining fee, but the one I'm working on has half price joining fee for the under 40s to try and attract a younger crowd of members. I also don't know that many guys there, but am looking forward to getting to know more and see that as part of the fun of it. Anyway, I've always said if I'm joining somewhere its to play an enjoyable course, the club that comes with it is just a bonus if its a good one and I'm more than happy to take part in club life, but its the course thats the major attraction.

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Mark Pearce

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2010, 04:08:20 AM »
Sean, Tony,

Dinner matches sound like a wonderful thing.  Aside from Deal the only club I know of that has these dinners is HCEG and, by the sound of it, the format (including the betting on unknown pairings) is virually identical.  Really great fun, I'm sure and great for the club.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2010, 04:33:44 AM »
Mark - the member who started our dinner matches is also a HCEG member. They are a great way for new members to meet fellow members.

I am delighted Tony has had such a positive experience over the the last couple of years, it shows that a good programme of events coupled with a diamond chap who is willing to meet  new people makes it possible to feel very at home at the club within a relatively short time.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2010, 04:51:40 AM »
Of course, we have drifted from the title of the thread: Is the Average....I wouldn't consider Deal or Burnham average.  Perhaps Spangles is right, if clubs are content with average than they may be in trouble.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2010, 07:36:59 AM »
Sean - Deal may not be the average club but all of the above can be done and cost nothing. Black tie match dinners can be breakfasts with games arranged there and then. Roll ups happen at many clubs and matches should have team sheets. If there is a will to encourage new members not new "revenue streams" then clubs can succeed.
Cave Nil Vino

Scott Warren

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2010, 07:56:04 AM »
I'll just add a healthy "+1" to what Tony said about being a member at Deal. Truth be told the magic ingredient is enthusiastic senior members and board members who welcome you into the fold in more than a mere handshake when you join.

There have been a lot of wise words in this thread, but if you ask me it all comes down to having a sense of belonging. That is important to some people, but not to others. It's the others who will then struggle rationalising the cost of being a member at a club, but for me, the intangibles of belonging to a club have always far outweighed the cost per round when you break it down at the end of the year (though having said that, I don't know if many distance members ever got such a good cost per round figure at Deal as I did!! - lucky I enjoy waking early and travelling on trains!).

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2010, 08:15:47 AM »
Heres the problem - The new breed of golfer has earings, tattoos, mobile phones he absolutely does not want to put a penguin suit on and play seagulls. He will want to park his works van, change in the car park, sometimes trousers as well and get out with his mates. Its great having draws for competitions but what if you get drawn with bad company. When I played I never really minded who I played with because I did not talk much anyway as I was playing serious golf, but many club competitions are less serious and there is a big percentage that ike to still have the company of their mates, to me know the company is important. Not all new members want to integrate, some are happy in their fours. The point I make is some like hot some like cold and for every great positive a GCAer might see in being a Deal member, might be a minus for another. It is a real mixed bag out there but a club could have a rule like "mobile phones are not allowed on the golf course" and that mean the loss of members or potential new members.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark Pearce

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2010, 09:14:12 AM »
Adrian,

The guy you are describing, who wants to change in the car park, play with his mates and bugger off doesn't sound like someone who wants to belong to a club or who I'd want to be in a club with.  You're welcome to him.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2010, 09:29:25 AM »
Adrian,

The guy you are describing, who wants to change in the car park, play with his mates and bugger off doesn't sound like someone who wants to belong to a club or who I'd want to be in a club with.  You're welcome to him.
And that would be the attitute that some clubs would take. The thought that there is an abudance of 'the right member' out there waiting to step in is quite a myth..... your replacement line is filled with backward wearing caps, in the hole chanters and ebay raiders. Mark welcome to the world of running a golf course.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2010, 10:25:14 AM »
Adrian I understand, after all I live in HACKNEY!

From my Kitchen I look out across gardens at a delightful Georgian terrace (Deal) and from my front door, Vitoria Park and the tower blocks that litter the East End (Epping). ;D

Clubs have to choose, take all or find people who will fit in with their own dreams and it’s my guess that the aging membership are thinking more of Et in Arcadio ego, rather than of attracting members from what they imagine Hackney to be.  In return many Hackney residents are quite surprised when they find out where some of their fellow dog walkers live and that they’re not bad blokes really.

My  point is that  if there is a club culture that members want to see prevail they will have to go to extraordinary lengths to introduce new members in a way that the prevailing ethos survives. This will mean making great lengths to welcome new golfers. Individuals will be easier to assimilate than groups but will be more likely to stay IF THEY LIKE IT.  It will mean attracting fewer golfers next year (as some prospective members will not be attracted to this club) but hopefully a steady stream over the years that help expand the club. Until recently the average club hasn’t had to seriously address the problem.   Unfortunately the short term nature of committees that run the club mean that it will be hard to stick with this policy if a few influential members don’t like it. Most clubs wait until the joining fee and the waiting list have gone before they acknowledge they have a problem.  By then the club is already a hodge podge of members without a strong ethos puling them together.

I should add, Epping is owned by a (more or less) benevolent despot!  I think it’s a lot easier for this kind of new club, like yours, to adapt and attract a varied clientele than it is for the older established members club.

I’m always amused by the middle aged rebel, who earns a good living Monday to Friday in a suit and then at the weekend dons a leather jacket, too small to hide his paunch, and swears he’d never be seen dead in a  “golf club”. This attitude can also be found in a significant no of pay and play guys.  i.e. it’s not cool to tuck shirts in and why do I need to take off my baseball caps indoors. They’re not all t++++++’s and I’ve enjoyed palying with more than a few of them. Mind you, they wouldn’t last 5 mins in Hackney.


On principal I’m only prepared to  agree with TEP on one thing, and it’s his big world theory of golf.  Golf will survive but it will mostly not resemble the ‘average’ members club of yesteryear.  Those clubs who do want to maintain there old traditions will be the ones who work hardest at it unless they are lucky enough to be in that small select group of clubs.  But then you knew that already.








I’m also intrigued as to why Scottish clubs use a draw for competitions and English ones don’t? Sean what happens at Pennard? 

How about Ireland.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2010, 01:08:30 PM »
Heres the problem - The new breed of golfer has earings, tattoos, mobile phones he absolutely does not want to put a penguin suit on and play seagulls. He will want to park his works van, change in the car park, sometimes trousers as well and get out with his mates.

I think we're getting to the nub of the problem here.

Adrian is possibly exaggerating a little, but it is a fact that many younger golfers come from the ranks of tradesmen rather than from the  'professions'.

Golf requires a decent disposable income, and generally speaking tradesmen are streets ahead when it comes to disposable income compared to so-called middle class people in average white collar PAYE jobs. Being self-employed, they also have the ability to find time for golf during the week when courses are quiet. The most popular hobbies amongst my tradesman friends seem to be the previously aristocratic pursuits of golf, shooting, and fishing; the irony here is self-evident.

One thing that these guys are not interested in however, is the formality involved in a traditional club. Why shouldn't they wear jeans on the golf course? Why can't they leave their phone switched on so that a client can reach them? Why should they call some old bloke 'Mr Captain' when last year everyone called him 'Bill'?

We have spawned a whole younger generation - not just tradesmen - who question authority as a matter of course. 'Rules' have to make good sense before they are followed whereas in previous times they might have have been obeyed without thought or question. 'Individuality' has become far more important than simply fitting in. This new outlook on life simply does not sit well with membership of a traditional golf club.

I am not being judgemental - simply pointing out the problem that traditional clubs face and will continue to face to a greater degree in the future. There are simply not enough nice middle class conformist types interested in golf around to sustain all the clubs we have.

Something has to give.


 



 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 01:13:06 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2010, 01:30:09 PM »
I largely agree Duncan, it part of the effect examined in Bowling Alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone 

I reckon I might play for another 30 years if I'm lucky.  I'll be OK. ;)
Let's make GCA grate again!

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2010, 01:36:02 PM »
Most of these issues aren't unique to the UK--they're front and center on this side,too.

Ultimately,my guess is that dress codes,etc. will eventually lose out to the need for dollars(and pounds).Outside of the very topmost bracket,it's more a matter of survival at any cost--tradition be damned.

BTW--what does "playing seagulls" mean?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2010, 01:38:58 PM »
Sean, Tony,

Dinner matches sound like a wonderful thing.  Aside from Deal the only club I know of that has these dinners is HCEG and, by the sound of it, the format (including the betting on unknown pairings) is virually identical.  Really great fun, I'm sure and great for the club.

Mark

Glasgow do it once a year and is referred to as the Challenge dinner.

Niall

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2010, 01:43:50 PM »
Playing Seagulls === gentlemen getting together that talk very posh and then when drunk and talk loudly, the mixture of the cackle and laughing sounds like seagulls.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JMEvensky

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2010, 01:46:27 PM »

Playing Seagulls === gentlemen getting together that talk very posh and then when drunk and talk loudly, the mixture of the cackle and laughing sounds like seagulls.


Thanks.Reading you guys makes me realize how right Shaw was.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2010, 01:49:28 PM »
Whilst some dress codes have dropped ie; collarless shirts, very very few UK clubs allow Jeans on the course and that has held up quite well. We allow Jeans in the clubhouse but not on the course. I guess todays younger member still remembers Anarchy in the UK and today's captains have Never mind the Bollocks amongst their CDs.....move on 20 years and perhaps the new captains will rap their captains speech.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2010, 01:50:04 PM »
Duncan

I think the real problem with new golfers is not what class there from or whether there in a profession or in a good job, the real issue is that an awful lot of new members don't get taught etiquette. Twenty odd years ago etiquette was a much bigger thing and I would guess most golfers would have been introduced to the game by their parents and etiquette would have been the first thing they would have learned. Even before they learned to grip a club.

A lot of new golfers are taking golf up at an older age and are out playing the course before they have learned to behave in a proper fashion (and I say that as someone who has been known to throw the odd club).

Adrian

I take your point its hard to turn away potential revenue just because they don't conform to "standards" however I suspect that there will be one or two clubs that will go the other way and do quite well out of not lowering standards.

Niall

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2010, 01:50:27 PM »
Shaw?now you need to explain to me!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2010, 01:52:28 PM »
Niall - yes I agree some course's will keep up the bastion and do well from it.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2010, 01:56:32 PM »
Shaw?now you need to explain to me!
Adrian,

Shaw is frequently attributed with the famous saying about Britain and America being two nations seperated by a common language.  The same saying is also, however, sometimes attributed either to Oscar Wilde or even Winston Churchill.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2010, 02:00:02 PM »
Oh yes Mark...Bernard, I get it now.

You Merrycans would love the nicknames for the caddies on the European tour.... one of them is called "The Seagull" but that because he sh*ts on his mates.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2010, 02:07:57 PM »
As long as the discussion centers(centres?) on golf,I can usually make out the slang.The cricket discussion,however,made me feel like a visitor from another planet.

I assume baseball would have the same affect going the other direction.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Is the Average Members Course in the UK......
« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2010, 03:41:08 PM »
As other threads on this site show clubs come and clubs go. There is nothing new to that. To me the average members club changes its style from decade to decade. Much of the problems come from the over commercialisation of golf through the late 80's and thereafter. In 1985 most golf courses were effectively shut from November to March. 25% of the membership played at the most 5 times a year and half of these probably never. Club houses were usually slightly run down, offering very simple facilities and the most expensive piece of furniture was probably the snooker table.

Leeds area clubs had maybe 400 members paying £350 with these members playing maybe 6000 rounds a year. On top of this, they may have had green fees at £15 and see maybe 1000 greenfee round (non member's guest). Clubs had to have an active social and competition life in order to pay their way

By 1990, most clubs had 550+ and still had long waiting lists. They had hiked subs up to £450+ and entered into improvement projects for the club house, course and maintenance improvements.

As I see it, most players would consider a membership but not at the prices they are at today at most clubs. Because of this clubs are seeing memberships declining.  Combined with this is the fact that many clubs need to create revenue all year round which in the last few years has been difficult to not possible. Many clubs have high maintenance costs.

To me, many clubs should look at reducing services and costs. They could close the course for much of the winter and look at reducing their overheads during this time. Maybe the secretary/pro will return or even the artisans club as a way of cutting costs.

Jon

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