[James Boon]

The fact is that in mine and Mark's area of the country at least, joining fees are no longer charged at any but the more 'exclusive' clubs in the more affluent locations. Clubs for whom membership still holds some social 'cachet' are able to charge joining fees; the majority - many of whom have just as good if not superior courses - are not.

The perfect example;

http://www.cavendishgolfclub.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=82

Duncan,

Cavendish seems to have a good spread of options there! When I spotted the "No Joining Fee" and the "£347 over 50 miles" had me rushing to Google Maps to check the distance from my house and contemplating joining. Alas, I'm only 35 miles away, so the £620 would be too much for me I'm afraid  It would have meant giving up my other country membership down at Burnham which would have been a tough call, but the "No Joining Fee" really makes things tempting!

Cheers,

James

[Adrian_Stiff]

Duncan I dont disagree with the points you make, they are exactly the arguement though. The problem is that the golf club is DOWN £30,000 per year, by no longer having a joining fee, where does the extra £30,000 come from especially in a difficult market, if you replaced the 30 retiring members with 60 new ones you have made some good ground. Ultimately there is a financial loss from the buisness that either gets a budget cut or a fee hike to fill the hole. A budget cut = not such a well presented course = possible member dissatisfaction = possible member leaves or Fee Hike = Course perceived as not such good value = possible member leaves.

Neither way is easy.

[Mark Pearce]

In my experience most clubs charging a joining fee will provide for payment over time, say 5 years.  I must admit that I have been trying to join a club in Scotland for some years now and got onto the waiting list a couple of years ago.  I had half expected to get in this year but it looks like I haven't which, in the current economic climate, has come as something of a relief.  Also, when I do get into that club, I'll probably drop my other Scottish membership whereas, a few years back, I might have held on to both.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan,

Cavendish seems to have a good spread of options there! When I spotted the "No Joining Fee" and the "£347 over 50 miles" had me rushing to Google Maps to check the distance from my house and contemplating joining. Alas, I'm only 35 miles away, so the £620 would be too much for me I'm afraid  It would have meant giving up my other country membership down at Burnham which would have been a tough call, but the "No Joining Fee" really makes things tempting!

Cheers,

James

So have a word with the secretary or manager and offer say £450.  In my recent experience clubs are ready to negotiate.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan I dont disagree with the points you make, they are exactly the arguement though. The problem is that the golf club is DOWN £30,000 per year, by no longer having a joining fee, where does the extra £30,000 come from especially in a difficult market, if you replaced the 30 retiring members with 60 new ones you have made some good ground. Ultimately there is a financial loss from the buisness that either gets a budget cut or a fee hike to fill the hole. A budget cut = not such a well presented course = possible member dissatisfaction = possible member leaves or Fee Hike = Course perceived as not such good value = possible member leaves.

Neither way is easy.

My point is though, that at any but the 'poshest' clubs the imposition of a joining fee is a barrier to attracting new members at all. So the club may well be down considerably more than the £30k you suggest by keeping the joining fee if they only manage to attract a handful of new members to replace those leaving.

James's post above is an excellent example of how ending the joining fee might attract a new member who otherwise would never had considered it. If James managed to negotiate a fee of £450 pa for country membership that is £450 into Cavendish's coffers for virtually no extra outlay at all. With a joining fee, their income from James would be nil - other than possibly the odd green fee.

You are quite right, though. It isn't easy!

[Duncan Cheslett]

In my experience most clubs charging a joining fee will provide for payment over time, say 5 years

So what happens if you decide to leave after a year or so? Are you contracted to pay the remainder of the joining fee?

I must say that as someone new to the workings of golf clubs, it seems a mighty strange idea to charge a customer a fee for the privilege of becoming a regular customer. I can't imagine it working in any other field of commerce.

Nice if you can get away with it. Clearly though, many clubs no longer get CAN away with it!

Supply and demand suggests to me that most average clubs will be forced to follow suit and abandon their joining fee altogether.

[Mark Pearce]

Duncan,

I don't know what happens if you leave before finishing paying the loining fee.  I have never left a club in those circumstances.  The point about golf clubs and members is that at traditional clubs it is not a relationship of supplier and customer.  Membership means belonging to a club and these clubs are members clubs, not businesses.  The idea of a joining fee doesn't seem at all odd to me, clubs want members who are committed to them and a joining fee is one way of helping to achieve that. 

[Sean_A]

Duncan

In one respect I agree with you in that charging an upfront fee is a bit off.  One the other hand, the club would then have to charge much more per year and have to be very good (and a bit lucky) at budgeting OR come hat in hand for every capital expense including what are sometimes emergencies.  I like your idea when it comes to making changes to the course - every time the powers that be want to do something they have to have a vote.  I always feel that if money is siitting there some folks will find a way to spend it.  That said, you wouldn't want to live hand to mouth and a club shouldn't either.  It is prudent to have reserves and a traditional way to collect reserves is by entry fees.  Everybody has a different idea of what level proper reserves should be and I would personally tend to be conservative in wanting more than enough (just as when you invite guests to dinner) on tap.  Part of that sort of policy would be to make sure I hand the reins over with the club in a sound financial position.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

The point about golf clubs and members is that at traditional clubs it is not a relationship of supplier and customer.  Membership means belonging to a club and these clubs are members clubs, not businesses.  The idea of a joining fee doesn't seem at all odd to me, clubs want members who are committed to them and a joining fee is one way of helping to achieve that.  

I understand completely and I am sure that for the last hundred years that model has worked in the main. I suspect that in the next hundred years however, some evolution of that model will be needed.

The attraction to the club of having an upfront joining fee is obvious; as Sean says it is a good way of building up reserves. I am not arguing against the principle so much as making the point that for most clubs in the future charging a joining fee will be a financial impossibility, as potential new members will no longer be prepared to pay one.

There are nowadays plenty of alternative ways of playing golf than paying a joining fee to a traditional members club. People will find these alternatives and take advantage.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The idea really is that the joining fee is your contribution to the buy in as a member, the subscription is to pay the run cost.

The buy in is a bit like a share except in many cases it is not exchangeable and so theoretically valueless in the event you leave. Members over the years have invested in the club, in many cases your buy in is your investment in the ownership of the club, if the JF is £1000 and the club has 600 members the notional value on the company value is £600,000, except of course nothing is for sale. Why should an older member have paid and another does not, and yes I know the answer, market conditions. Theoretically remember as a member you (part) own the place.

We charge a joining fee but we phase it over 4 years and if you leave you are not liable. What would I do if I abolished JFs now what would happen to my members that are 1,2 and 3 years into the payments. As soon as you drop your joining fee you drop your guard, you are becoming naked. Great for the consumer but you are gaining nomadic golfers that are remaining nomads rather than converting a nomad into a great club member.

The clubs that charge joining fees are about 50% in my area.

[Sean_A]

Duncan

I hope your new model doesn't come to pass because I fear the worst for those clubs as the beginning of the end.  In today's society folks WANT and WANT NOW, then later they toss those wants as if they are worn out clothes.  You could well be right that the new model is to hope to keep a member for 5 years.  I know when I first moved to England and the bank advisors were talking about 1,2,& 3 year mortgages then hope to the best deal one can find afterwards.  This was a very strange concept to me (and still is) as my guess was that folks were treating houses as an investment rather than as a home.  When I suggested I would be more interested in a 15 or 20 year mortgage the guy laughed me out the door. Perhaps this is what is heppening now at some places with joining fees.  I know a few guys who have shied away from membership because of the first year hit with dues and joining fees.  Like you, I don't think I would be willing to pay a joining fee for a club around me because if I were, I would have done so already.  That said, I would very cautious about joining a club with no joining fee and would want to make damn sure of my liabilities as a member in case of bankruptcy.  These days the value of the house and course may not be enough to pay a debt (especially at a forced auction!) if club officials get it terribly wrong.

Ciao    

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think Duncans model is what will/has happen to many clubs. I think the members struggly clubs will be those that have done this though.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

It isn't just a matter of a joining fee, but the amount.  If a joining fee is £200 then many won't be too bothered about "losing" their investment.  In essence, the same sort of culture will prevail - many short timer members.  I haven't been a memebr of that many clubs, but my impression is that high turnover is undesirable not only for financial reasons, but for club culture reasons. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

IMO the ‘average’ clubs I’ve looked at round  London need to do a lot more to  tie in the guys who have just joined.

I’ve never met a Secretary who didn’t say “We’re a very friendly club”. These men are mostly either A) liars or B) ignorant of what a friendly club actually is. 

A few things ‘average’ clubs need to address.

-   Identify the Cliques and SMASH them up.  Very difficult because normally the most influential  group are the blokes who have just agreed the next 3 Captains.  These guys are the stalwarts of the Club and also the reason why I’m very pessimistic for the future for so many.  They can’t see that things have to change and the older they get the less likely they are to embrace my kind of ideas.
-   Following on from this. The new pay and play courses come from 100% different approach and are attracting the age group that Clubs should be seeking.  Demographics mean ‘typical’ golf club=dinosaur. 
-   Make the best weekend times available to all, nothing will make a new member feel part of the club faster.
-   Make competition entry on a draw.  The people who ALWAYS play together do nothing for a club and if you look at the big picture you’ll see you’re better off without them.  Too often a few ‘silly season’ events are introduced so everyone plays with others e.g. a shotgun start or a scramble.  Balls to that;  those are the events to play with your mates, shake up the real golf and you’ll generate a Club feeling.
-   A small mandatory bar tab is a good thing. Again ‘trunk golfers’ are not Club Golfers.


Why do I want to see the above
-   It would make me feel welcome.  We’ve identified that people have to move around a lot more in these days and the other side of this is that potential new members have no a priory knowledge of which club will suit them i.e. where they will quickly feel at home.  Typically today my guess is that people only know one or two people when they join a club and it’s the CLUB’S problem to overcome that.
-   It will mean the old guys can help spread the ‘philosophy of the club’.  Import 4 balls of new members and you’ll import a lot of alien culture. This varies from etiquette, pace of play to what competitions to enter etc, etc etc.
-   Change the above and before I know it I feel part of a club and I’m a stayer.  I think a smart Club should make a concerted effort to get individuals in because they are more likely to feel a part of the whole than a small group.


The biggest mistake I made was to join a club with one other person.   They just left us to get on with it.  After 12 months I told my friend  I’m giving this place one more year and then after 24 months I walked away from an £1100 deposit.  No one from the Club ever asked me why and I’ve never heard of a Club doing that when I discuss this with others who’ve taken similar action.

[Tony_Muldoon]

The problem is now stark for the Average Club.  Why would anyone now join an 'average' club when it's perfectly possible to join an 'excellent' one. 

At a guess 70% of the Top 100 clubs in GB&I will now have you with no letter of introduction and a waiting list of 5 years or less?  Probably half of those have no waiting lists?

Are there more than 50 Clubs in Britain with at least two of the following minimum requirements?
- Five year wait
-  £1500 deposit
-  Five letters from full  members of more than two years standing.


Allowing for inflation, were there 500 such clubs a decade ago?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tony, maybe not 500, but a good 250 I reckon, and your 50 now probably not far off.

The problem with looking at typical patterns of membership behaviour and what they like, some say 50% like being mixed up with others in competitions and 50% don't. Typically only 33% of your members use the clubhourse, you will get a % of members that love practicing, that like playing two balls on their own late at night, lots of little groups of 4 that just like their own 4, then you get the strong 30% that mix, attend functions, play in teams,wear the clubs jumper, change their cubs every 3 years with the pro, have a few lessons etc. Everyone has different wants from their course, if you make rules those rues wont suit somebody and he will exit....as we keep saying its not easy.

[Mark Pearce]

Tony,

Many good points.  I've probably bored you with this before but one of the things I love about Crail is that the vast majority of competitions are ballot competitions.  Turn up at least 5 minutes before the half hourly ballot, pay your entry and fill in a card then, on the half hour, join the group on the first tee where the pro will draw cards, in threes, from a plastic bag. 

You can turn up on a whim (two years ago I drove up to the Northumberland (a five minute drive) for a comp, saw that the course was waterlogged, got back in the car and drove up to Crail (a three hour drive) and played in the Autumn meeting) and you are guaranteed to play with and then drink with members you probably haven't met before.  An excellent system.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Joining fees and annual subs are not the only money with which members may be asked to part. Levies, life memberships, bonds, debentures etc are all ways of raising money when the club wants to buy 50 acres of land to gain a practice ground, to build a new clubhouse, to rebuild a few holes to reduce the likelihood of a health and safety claim following a car crash, to build barriers against erosion and so on.

Most of the clubs with which I have had dealings either as a member or as a writer have at some time faced extinction and members have had to dip into their pockets, sometimes several times.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony, maybe not 500, but a good 250 I reckon, and your 50 now probably not far off.

The problem with looking at typical patterns of membership behaviour and what they like, some say 50% like being mixed up with others in competitions and 50% don't. Typically only 33% of your members use the clubhourse, you will get a % of members that love practicing, that like playing two balls on their own late at night, lots of little groups of 4 that just like their own 4, then you get the strong 30% that mix, attend functions, play in teams,wear the clubs jumper, change their cubs every 3 years with the pro, have a few lessons etc. Everyone has different wants from their course, if you make rules those rues wont suit somebody and he will exit....as we keep saying its not easy.

Adrian, I see your point and I’m sure you’ve spent a lot more time thinking about this than I have but ...(it’s a discussion group )

To survive these clubs need to attract new young members who will buy into the club and become the hardcore in future.   

Based on my own experience. I started playing at 41 and for the first year   three of us played at least once a week, together.  One bailed as his kids grew up and he wanted to play nearer home, sometimes with them.  The other two became more peripatetic and enjoyed a variety of places. However when one of us couldn’t play it was hard to get a game and this was one of the reasons why we agreed to join a club.  For the examples above it didn’t work for me.

If a club is to be more than a catch all for the groups you describe it needs to work hard at, for want of a word, ‘branding’ itself.  Figure what it wants to project e.g.  “friendly (whatever that really means), traditional (2 ball?), serious about golf (etiquette, rules and competition) and then the existing membership has to commit to developing new ways to get more like minded people in AND STAY  because the old ways and networks aren’t working any more.

The majority of this thread has been about pricing and when a business can’t discuss anything but pricing it’s in trouble.

However Ido  agree to get a group of ‘voluntary members’ to work together to achieve this will be very difficult.  But I suspect the ‘average’ club that does well in the next few years has a distinctive personality and an outward looking leadership.  As long as a club is content to be  ‘average’, its future is bleak.

[Niall C]

Tony

You're older than 41 ?!! You hide it well  

I've always thought that the best way to get involved in what goes on in a club is to enter the comps, that way you get introduced to a lot of members, many of whom have the regular groupings and will no doubt suggest you join them at such and such a time on a Saturday/Sunday morning/afternoon. Basically its for each of us to make the effort, not for the club to lay everything on with a spoon, after all the membership is the club and vice versa. Committees are there to make sure the books balance, not to lay on entertainment as though you were paying to go to the theatre. Or perhaps I don't expect an awful lot for my money.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony

You're older than 41 ?!! You hide it well  

I've always thought that the best way to get involved in what goes on in a club is to enter the comps, that way you get introduced to a lot of members, many of whom have the regular groupings and will no doubt suggest you join them at such and such a time on a Saturday/Sunday morning/afternoon. Basically its for each of us to make the effort, not for the club to lay everything on with a spoon, after all the membership is the club and vice versa. Committees are there to make sure the books balance, not to lay on entertainment as though you were paying to go to the theatre. Or perhaps I don't expect an awful lot for my money.

Niall

Thank you Niall, and to think you look much much younger than I do!


Is it standard in Scotland to play competitions with someone the club puts you out with?  Certainly not standard in England.  Agreed this is the best way to get ‘into’ the club.

[Niall C]

Tony,

It is, but then were a suspicious lot up here. It prevents any suspicion of players colluding on medal day if you know what I mean.

Niall

[Bill_McBride]

Tony, maybe not 500, but a good 250 I reckon, and your 50 now probably not far off.

The problem with looking at typical patterns of membership behaviour and what they like, some say 50% like being mixed up with others in competitions and 50% don't. Typically only 33% of your members use the clubhourse, you will get a % of members that love practicing, that like playing two balls on their own late at night, lots of little groups of 4 that just like their own 4, then you get the strong 30% that mix, attend functions, play in teams,wear the clubs jumper, change their cubs every 3 years with the pro, have a few lessons etc. Everyone has different wants from their course, if you make rules those rues wont suit somebody and he will exit....as we keep saying its not easy.

Adrian, I see your point and I’m sure you’ve spent a lot more time thinking about this than I have but ...(it’s a discussion group )

To survive these clubs need to attract new young members who will buy into the club and become the hardcore in future.   

Based on my own experience. I started playing at 41 and for the first year   three of us played at least once a week, together.  One bailed as his kids grew up and he wanted to play nearer home, sometimes with them.  The other two became more peripatetic and enjoyed a variety of places. However when one of us couldn’t play it was hard to get a game and this was one of the reasons why we agreed to join a club.  For the examples above it didn’t work for me.

If a club is to be more than a catch all for the groups you describe it needs to work hard at, for want of a word, ‘branding’ itself.  Figure what it wants to project e.g.  “friendly (whatever that really means), traditional (2 ball?), serious about golf (etiquette, rules and competition) and then the existing membership has to commit to developing new ways to get more like minded people in AND STAY  because the old ways and networks aren’t working any more.

The majority of this thread has been about pricing and when a business can’t discuss anything but pricing it’s in trouble.

However Ido  agree to get a group of ‘voluntary members’ to work together to achieve this will be very difficult.  But I suspect the ‘average’ club that does well in the next few years has a distinctive personality and an outward looking leadership.  As long as a club is content to be  ‘average’, its future is bleak.

From what I have seen of Deal, it would be the ideal place to be a member.

But I've only seen it with members, so who knows what it would be like to be a new mwmber?

[Sean_A]

Tony, maybe not 500, but a good 250 I reckon, and your 50 now probably not far off.

The problem with looking at typical patterns of membership behaviour and what they like, some say 50% like being mixed up with others in competitions and 50% don't. Typically only 33% of your members use the clubhourse, you will get a % of members that love practicing, that like playing two balls on their own late at night, lots of little groups of 4 that just like their own 4, then you get the strong 30% that mix, attend functions, play in teams,wear the clubs jumper, change their cubs every 3 years with the pro, have a few lessons etc. Everyone has different wants from their course, if you make rules those rues wont suit somebody and he will exit....as we keep saying its not easy.

Adrian, I see your point and I’m sure you’ve spent a lot more time thinking about this than I have but ...(it’s a discussion group )

To survive these clubs need to attract new young members who will buy into the club and become the hardcore in future.  

Based on my own experience. I started playing at 41 and for the first year   three of us played at least once a week, together.  One bailed as his kids grew up and he wanted to play nearer home, sometimes with them.  The other two became more peripatetic and enjoyed a variety of places. However when one of us couldn’t play it was hard to get a game and this was one of the reasons why we agreed to join a club.  For the examples above it didn’t work for me.

If a club is to be more than a catch all for the groups you describe it needs to work hard at, for want of a word, ‘branding’ itself.  Figure what it wants to project e.g.  “friendly (whatever that really means), traditional (2 ball?), serious about golf (etiquette, rules and competition) and then the existing membership has to commit to developing new ways to get more like minded people in AND STAY  because the old ways and networks aren’t working any more.

The majority of this thread has been about pricing and when a business can’t discuss anything but pricing it’s in trouble.

However Ido  agree to get a group of ‘voluntary members’ to work together to achieve this will be very difficult.  But I suspect the ‘average’ club that does well in the next few years has a distinctive personality and an outward looking leadership.  As long as a club is content to be  ‘average’, its future is bleak.

Spangles

Once you get past the course, what else is a club meant to push which is more important than price?  The only thing I can think of is a REALLY good secretary who goes out of his way to look after members - worth his weight in gold a goodun is.  Still, unless you join in a gaggle or are mates with many members, it is down to the individual to kick on.  Trying to break up cliques is never gonna happen because its group dynamics - as scientific as physics.  Like you, I have always been in favour of comps being a draw so long as time preferences are maintained.  It would be a shame to have guys drop out of comps because their tee times don't mesh with their life when they could do.  I don't think a lot of new member types really explore what is available for them at clubs in terms of playing with different folks.  Of course, gthe best of both worlds is to have a lot of mates and to be assertive with team matches etc.  I can recall when I joined Burnham I was sticking my name down for team matches and the chap next to me pointed out that I had only just joined - my name went on the list despite the mild rebuke.  I also like how the Saturday comps are organized in a way that folks just slot their name in a group - I never pay attention to the names - I just go for the preferred time.  In general, Burnham has been really good if one is willing to stick their hand out and say hello.     

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bill deal is outstanding in that respect and the experience ofbeing a member has exceeded my high expectations.  I’ve been a member for 20 months, have played about 30 games, more than half of them have been with people I’ve met through the club.

Ways in which I have played games with people I hadn’t known prior to joining:-

Match Dinner. 4 a year.  Friday night you dress up, buy a drink and then you enter a room with other members (both new and some very senior members included) and don’t  come out until you’ve arranged 3 games.  At dinner after bets are taken on the games.  Luckily for my backers I won two out of my three matches!  The next morning one “squiffy” banker was informed by his friends he had placed £800 on matches involving people he didn’t know. (This was only a small exaggeration but it achieved it’s effect i.e.  it didn’t make his head feel any better.)  I really enjoyed the whole process  and will participate again in February an otherwise quiet time of year.  Foursomes

Reciprocals. I’ve played Rye twice and RSG each time with 2-3 people I didn’t know. Foursomes.

Matches.  If you put your name forward you will get to play against either local clubs, Walmer and Kingsdown or within the Club.  The Artisans Match is a wonderful.  I’m told they always win and you have to take your thrashing like a man.  Great dinner after.  Foursomes.  (Speaking with friends, at many Clubs there are limited matches and the teams never change as they constitute another set of Cliques within the Club)

Foursomes is definitely a more social game and ideal for getting members to mix.  I think about a third of my games at Deal have been in this format.

There are two roll ups on a Wednesday and I believe another informal  one on a Saturday in Winter.  I’ve played in the Summer where I arrived at 3.45pm. the next player appeared at 4 and said “Off we go, it’s £2 in the pot Stableford, there’ll be a curry in the Clubhouse later.”  A wonderful  summer evening.

There’s also a Monthly Stableford and I can ask the Secretary to find me someone to play with.  I will explore this next year.

I’ve also played in informal matches against visiting golfers.

It’s hard to imagine there are more opportunities to find my way into the Club.  This was definitely  not the case in the ‘average’ course I belonged to previously.



Sean I think our beliefs are similar.  On price alone a Club can’t hope to compete with the P&P market. Unless being a member of a club offers more than somewhere to play then a cost benefit analysis will go against it every time.  Today many golfers don’t see this and so the members clubs need to reach out to bring them in.  They could start by looking at the opportunities to play with established members. Trouble in those members are not used to needing to bring in new blood.

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