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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2010, 10:11:32 AM »
 8) ;D 8)

It's important to build good greens , as they in the end make or break a golf course.   Visuals certainly make it great rather than good in most peoples eyes , and a bad site makes it hard without money.   Soooooooo  iI'm thinking that you have to qualify just how good it can be...

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2010, 10:15:21 AM »
adrian, you quoted:
"When you have elevation changes of 300-400 feet, rocky mountainous sites, power lines going across, you cant make a really good course"

that's the exact description of SagebrushGolf and Sporting Club, and the result is most say, pretty good

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2010, 01:38:39 PM »
Lou,
You stated this very well!
As to quality, WP is easily a top 20 Texas course in my view; Mansfield National does not scratch the top 100.  But in terms of customer satisfaction, at least quantitatively, I think MN has you by a bunch.

This is an important point, customer satisfaction should be high on the architects mind if golf is going to continue to grow and bring in more golfers. This site and the majority of the párticipants favor a particluar design style and seem to get locked into this style but the world needs variety and more importantly a variety of golf courses that pleases the majority of the golfing public and are affordable and accessable.
Mike,
This is not meant to take anything away from your efforts, from the pictures I have seen, the course is outstanding and someday I would love to play it! I just agree with Lou, a lot of courses that don´t make it into high ratings, have a major place in golf IMO and that often gets overlooked or does not get the respect it deserves on this site!

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2010, 01:41:23 PM »
Phillipe, hardly, the views are fantastic rather than ugly power lines crossing the place.... Believe me there are some ugly places not to put a good golf course and there are some sites that are too difficult.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2010, 01:44:50 PM »
I'd guess Mike's WP has damn near every course beat when it comes to client/customer satisfaction measured quantitatively. What you guys are referencing is something else entirely.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2010, 08:57:38 PM »
Adrian: OK, there was only one little power line on site and it was moved.... but the rocky mountain site and the 300-400 feet of elevation change was there...

it was just tooo easy

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2010, 09:15:30 PM »
Phillipe,

At first I thought no, but, upon reflection, on all but the most extreme sites or sites with extreme permitting restrictions, I think the answer is "yes".

I think man's creativity can compensate for less than ideal conditions

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2010, 02:42:33 PM »
Nuzzo!!!!!

As to quality, WP is easily a top 20 Texas course in my view; Mansfield National does not scratch the top 100.  But in terms of customer satisfaction, at least quantitatively, I think MN has you by a bunch.


Thank you Lou!!!
I was responding to your comment that it could be done with a lot of money - we built Wolf Point for $3MM and at the exact pace our client requested. 
I think you like Wolf Point less than anyone who has visited.
I would rather play there than any course in TX.
My point is that $$$$ isn't the primary factor.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2010, 11:06:10 AM »
I was responding to your comment that it could be done with a lot of money - we built Wolf Point for $3MM and at the exact pace our client requested. 
I think you like Wolf Point less than anyone who has visited.
I would rather play there than any course in TX.
My point is that $$$$ isn't the primary factor.
Cheers

My friend Mike, do I sense some derision or disappointment?

This is what I said in response to the question posed by the thread: "But with today's equipment and body of knowledge, as long as $$$$$ is available, the answer is typically yes."  Perhaps I should have tossed in an average construction budget for an average location to be more specific.  I never suggested that BIG money was the primary factor, or that spending progressively greater amounts would have proportionally superior results.

Considering that you had whatever time you needed to build WP, an owner who gave you considerable berth, a contractor/superintendent who is nothing short of outstanding, a situation which incentivized you to give full, undivided attention to the project over a long time horizon, the luxury of a low-cost, fairly low-regulation environment, and different design and physical plant requirements to handle a small fraction of volume, your $3MM budget in effect seems comparable to that of Mansfield's.

My comment about customer satisfaction with the qualifier "quantitatively" is simply that WP caters to a handfull of people while Mansfield deals with thousands.  I am confident that Al knows what a fantastic deal he got from you and Don and that he, and specially Dale, are pleased as peaches to play the course every day.

As to me liking WP less than "anyone who has visited", you may wish to consider that perceived reactions aren't always accurate.  You asked for my considered evaluation of the course, which, if you recall, I gave you several days later.  I could have been effusively complimentary, but, for whatever it was worth, I gave you my honest appraisal.

Lastly, there are over 1,000 courses in Texas.  That I believe WP is "easily a top 20" should be taken as a great compliment, particularly since you know that I am not a big fan of courses that use heavily contoured, rumpled greens as a primary feature to defend par.  If being in the top 2% of a golf-rich state is not high enough for you, I fear that you might be disappointed in your career.  Believe it or not, there are quite a few very smart, highly motivated archies out there who would be honored to have ANY of their courses so highly acclaimed, not to say anything about their first effort.  Be happy!

Here's hoping for another great design opportunity in the near future.  I am anxious to see what you've learned from WP.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2010, 02:41:59 PM »
Lou!!!*
"as long as $$$$$ is available, the answer is typically yes"
The me that still reads that one would need $$$$$.

Yes I do take what you say as a compliment - thank you - I am very appreciative of your support.
And I was digging you as you have it ranked lower than any other visitor.  :)

*The !!! are for effect in the way that I usually greet Lou.
I greet Lou!!!! as if I were cheering for Lou Pinella.
LOU!!!!!
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

PGertner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2010, 11:44:41 AM »
I am pretty sure Archie Struthers did just that....

I saw the property at Twisted Dune pre shovel....and played maybe three years later.  Ok, TD may not be "great" as in PV great or Oakmont great, but its somewhere between pretty damn good and great....

Earlier poster Archie created a unique and very fun golf course from virtually nothing.

Patrick Gertner
Potowomut GC
East Greenwich, RI

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2010, 12:10:39 PM »
The answer is yes but subject to a few conditions, first being deep pockets and loads and loads of money. But then golf is not in the sculpture business but sport, so art form is not the central point of the exercise .

The big question is what constitutes a good or great course? Has strategy laced with penal a place on a good course, is it the clever mix of both that creates that fundamental enjoyment that you realise that you have just played a great course.

Whatever, yet I feel that the course must keep in tune with its surroundings, it IHMO should not look like a Green Course with white bunkers place in the middle of a lunar landscape of grey lunar terrain.

In reality the answer must be no as so many variables come into play most of which can only be overcome by big budgets. For me the starting point must always be land fit for purpose otherwise you are in a war zone fighting budget against construction costs and a potential of other factors depending the nature of the client , weather and reason for the course in the first place.

How good is your favourite course, well use a set of Hickory after the first round then compare the two rounds. If neither offered any hope you have your answer.

I for all my sins prefer Links golf.

Given enough money you can just about achieve most things, but great comes at a higher cost than just plain money

MELVYN   

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2010, 09:12:06 PM »
I am pretty sure Archie Struthers did just that....

I saw the property at Twisted Dune pre shovel....and played maybe three years later.  Ok, TD may not be "great" as in PV great or Oakmont great, but its somewhere between pretty damn good and great....

Earlier poster Archie created a unique and very fun golf course from virtually nothing.

He sure did.
Very creative and fun to play.


Patrick Gertner
Potowomut GC
East Greenwich, RI

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can ANY site produce a really good course ?
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2010, 09:45:12 AM »
I wonder what the budget for Talking Stick North was?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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