News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« on: November 24, 2010, 10:50:27 AM »
Just got back from touring Wintonbury Hills GC, the Bloomfield, CT muni 3 miles from my house that Pete Dye-Tim Liddy did. Course is completing an amazingly effective renovation of its bunkers, done in record time (a month) by an incredibly qualified builder (MacCurrach Golf) with design by Liddy for a total budget of only about $175,000. 35 bunkers removed to facilitate maintenance/pace of play with areas to be grown over in fescue/bluegrass; about 60 bunkers rebuilt with more traditional sod-down lines. They started the work Oct. 30 or so and have done about 80% of the work, and weather cooperating might actually finish this year. Course has been kept in play as no green surfaces are effected. Place already is knitting as sand goes back in. I doubt 90% of the regulars will notice any significant difference, and telltale Dye bunkers (i.e. moon bunker on 16th) remain. was cold today, wind howling at 30-40 mph, but have a 9 a.m. tee time Thanksgiving morning.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 12:22:18 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2010, 03:04:16 PM »
Brad,
I'm happy to see you touting an affordable improvement, although I remain a little skeptical that 60 bunkers were "rebuilt" as in re-constructed. If in fact the bunkers were reshaped, new drainage, new liner if needed, new sand, and sodded then that is an impressive dollar amount. Did the 30 fill ins require import or were the areas shaped with existing material in place? Did the contractor turnkey or was staff involved?

Another question that has to be asked and one I believe you have commented on in reference to other renovation work.
Why does such a young course require 30 bunkers to be filled in and the other 60 to be rebuilt? What went wrong in the first go around?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2010, 03:49:14 PM »
No liners, Don. As for the original construction, let's just say that the winning bid was a low bidder and we learned our lesson so that all future such contracts include a "request for qualifications" provision first. Besides which, the fairly minimal irrigation system did not have enough heads to cover the south-facing bunker faces. The money also includes a dramatic expansion of teeing grounds on two of the par-3 holes. I'll ask Tim Liddy to provide design specification details.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 03:51:57 PM by Brad Klein »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2010, 03:57:31 PM »
Great news coming from down the road!  I ought to try and drive out to Wintonbury to have a look at it before I head back to school on Sunday.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2010, 04:16:15 PM »
No liners, Don. As for the original construction, let's just say that the winning bid was a low bidder and we learned our lesson so that all future such contracts include a "request for qualifications" provision first. Besides which, the fairly minimal irrigation system did not have enough heads to cover the south-facing bunker faces. The money also includes a dramatic expansion of teeing grounds on two of the par-3 holes. I'll ask Tim Liddy to provide design specification details.

Thanks Brad.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 04:26:33 PM »
Don,

Every time I am out there I think it was a miracle we got the place built at all. And in my standard industry lecture about "lessons of municipal golf," my key PowerPoint slide simply says "don't try it."

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 06:22:17 PM »
Nice work Brad.
What was the miraculous part?
Gobble Gobble
Mike
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 06:47:57 PM »
Did they remove the Dell hole?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 08:09:26 PM »
Mike,

3 municipal bond elections, all of which we won overwhelmingly; Pete Dye doing it for $1 (though we paid Tim Liddy, but well below market rate); 1,000 meetings; 8 years of permitting at the town, state (!) and federal levels; a whole new site change half way through; and a contractor who won the bid solely on the basis of price, not prior experience.   

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2010, 07:48:30 AM »
Pete Dye for a dollar, fantastic. Having to remove 35 bunkers and renovate the others at a cost of 175,000 so soon after opening, not so fantastic? I am sure that was not an easy sale, but at least you got it done! congrats

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2010, 08:32:58 AM »
Brad,
How long since you built YOUR  first bunker? ;D ;D
It's still there with just some new sand.....
Happy Thanksgiving...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2010, 09:50:57 AM »
Wintonbury Hills in Bloomfield, Connecticut is a good example of a golf course built in 2002, near the end of exuberant times of “a new golf course a day”.  Then, it was important to be the best in the area and a little excess was understandable.

Contrast that to the 2010 survival mode of today where our goal is to reduce the maintenance cost by 10-15% to accommodate lower fees and rounds.

Much like editing the written word, it is always nice, 7 years later, to have the opportunity to edit your work with fresh eyes.

Updating the construction of the bunkers (new sand and drainage) is normal 7 years after construction on better golf courses.  In this case it allowed us the opportunity to take a look at reducing maintenance and adjusting a few artistic elements (scale, texture and detail) of the bunkering. We removed bunkers that were more visual in nature and essentially out of play. We added more detail to the remaining bunkers, while at the same time softening many slopes to reduce maintenance. We also considered some of the reviews that felt a few of the green complexes looked repetitive.

Overall it has been a rewarding experience, giving me a chance of refining work that initial budget and time constraints did not allow.  I also like to think I am a better architect than I was 7 years ago (believe it or not, it takes time to be a good golf course architect) and I wanted to taking full advantage of a more talented team around me.


Finally, besides master planning, this project is typical of the type and scope of work I have seen over the past few years with smaller budgets and projects. In the US it will probably be this way over the next few years as well.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2010, 11:12:33 AM »
Tim, thanks for the honest appraisal of what and why things were done.  I think every course can be improved 7 years after opening.  Repeated play by regulars allows everyone, super, players and owners to truly soak in things that work or don't work.  Adjust drainage or lips of bunkers is often needed as well.  Unfortunately they usually don't bring back the original architect, often it is the "pro" or owner who thinks he knows best.  In addition, finding $175,000 in this golf economy is not easy.  I am guessing Brad's influence helps matters there.

Now blowing up Poppy Hills because most of it is bad and bringing back the same lead architect, that scares me a bit.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2010, 11:30:36 AM »
Tim or Brad

Could you please post pix of a few examples of bunker removal for those which are more out of play and really about visual impact?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2010, 01:12:09 PM »
Just played there this a.m, took a friend who has very keen eye for such things and has played the place 20X with me and he did not realize the turfed over areas with the virtually knitted sod were grounds of disappeared bunkers. If I can figure out how to post images I will.

The whole maintenance budget for the place is $540,000 a year and Billy Casper Management does a pretty good job, with superintendent Mark Mansur able to keep Poa out while using a n extremely low chemical budget and relying upon cultural practices like the wind since there are so few trees on site. So investing $175,000 seven years after we opened to adjust things and save money down the road is nothing but a wise investment given how so many other places are tossing money away on ambitious projects. And we still have our little tiny clubhouse, 5,300 square feet, with no lockers, so we have not lost focus on our mission.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2010, 01:49:54 PM »
One of my favorite munis - anywhere.  Good job, guys!

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2010, 05:02:13 PM »
95 bunkers on a muni to begin does seem like excessive long term maintenance cost. 

Brad do you have any input as to the change in expense with the removal of the bunkers?  Or what are the maintenance improvements/changes  elsewhere expected with the reduction in the number of bunkers?

Seems amazing that it has already been 7 years since the WH opened

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2010, 08:26:57 PM »
3 elections and 1,000 meetings would be a miracle to get through for sure.

Nice work Tim & Brad
I enjoyed playing there several years ago.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2010, 02:45:07 PM »
John,

They are all Dell holes from your normal approach angle to the green, and after your normal tee shot.

Thanks Mike and Lynn.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 02:49:03 PM by Tim Liddy »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2010, 08:30:15 PM »
Brad & Tim,

How much of the decision to remove bunkers was influenced by the cost to maintain them ?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wintonbury Hills Renovation
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2010, 11:02:25 PM »
Patrick,

A lot, as far as I can tell, though aesthetics played a role in that the decision to do some work enabled Tim Liddy to make a case for improving the others. In response to Bill Cosgrove's inquiry I'm gathering data on labor and savings on the project.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back