[Jeff_Brauer]

Randy,

In the US, I think you could easily get around it. I recall not having my handicap card when I went to play Riviera, which had a 7 handicap limit to play the back tees.  The starter let me hit my opening tee ball, and when that looked good, striped right down the middle, he said play away (I would have been the only one in the group not playing the back tees)

In Singapore, I am not so sure. I played in a casual tournament down there years ago as part of a golf show.  On one hole, after airmailing a green only to find the ball had to have dissapeared down a deep ravine, I opted to pick up, rather than go back in the fw and extend an already long round. I put something like a 10 on my card, but was DQ'ed quite vocifieriously and they refused to post my score because "I didn't finish" that hole.  While true enough, I can't imagine them monitoring that so closely in that kind of event in the US.

I also recall there was not a lot of short putt concessions, etc. over there, that would be typical here in a friendly match.  Short version, it appeared to me that there was a lot less give in whatever local rules they had over there.  

[Randy Thompson]

Mark,
From their web-site under green fee´s and conditions of play; 1.All players, irrespective the age, must posses official handicaps of lower than:

■Men - 24
■Ladies - 36
To all,
Its discrimination, my father played for 20 years, knew all the rules ect ect but never lowed his handicapp from 25. One´s handicapp is more often than not, directly related to the time you have to invest. Requiring or making sure you understand the rules and etiquette of golf is understandable and a good policy. Prohibiting some forty percent of the golfing population from playing a golf course because of their limited time to invest in the sport is not good for the growth of the sport.

[Mike Hendren]

Life is hard on stupid people and those who suck.  Don't ask me how I know.

Bogey

[Melvyn Morrow]

There you go again Michael running yourself down. Look mate you are not as bad as you think you are. Yes I can’t lie, you are indeed terrible but you must stop depressing yourself by constantly looking into your mirror.  

There is medication you can take, but you are now long in the tooth so it may not work. You must fight it, but the perhaps it would have been kind of Ran to have included you in his recent cull.

GET WELL SOON  - although is Stupid a sickness?

Melvyn

I’m joking, just could not resist the opportunity. 

[jeffwarne]

In Singapore, I am not so sure. I played in a casual tournament down there years ago as part of a golf show.  On one hole, after airmailing a green only to find the ball had to have dissapeared down a deep ravine, I opted to pick up, rather than go back in the fw and extend an already long round. I put something like a 10 on my card, but was DQ'ed quite vocifieriously and they refused to post my score because "I didn't finish" that hole.  While true enough, I can't imagine them monitoring that so closely in that kind of event in the US.

I also recall there was not a lot of short putt concessions, etc. over there, that would be typical here in a friendly match.  Short version, it appeared to me that there was a lot less give in whatever local rules they had over there.  

Isn't "casual tournament" an oxymoron?


Perhaps if we required more golfers to have a 24 handicap,rather than counting those well north of that as actual golfers, we wouldn't have had the NGF telling us we needed to open a course a day for 20 years to fill the perceived demand and could've actually built fewer courses, but more worth saving during the "golf boom"

[Carl Johnson]

In 2007 TOC required a 24 for men and all of our group was required to show our HC cards.  At that time my index was 19 point something and home course handicap was 22 from middle tees.  TOC starter wrote 22 next to my name, not my index.  On the same trip Muirfield required a 20 handicap, but when we played they never asked to see our cards and did not ask what our handicaps were.  I'm scheduled to play the Dunluce course at Royal Portrush next year, and their stated max. HC is 18 (plus the letter of intro).  [On the other hand, Royal County Down does not appear to have any max., but rather suggests tees based on your HC.]  Mine probably won't be that low (18) then, so it will be interesting to see if they let me on the Dunluce course.  But my attitude is, "It's their course and their business and they can make the rules."  If they don't want me to play because my HC is too high, I'll go somewhere else.  On the other hand, obviously there is not a direct correlation between HC and speed of play, if that is what they are really interested in.  In spite of my relatively high HC, I am definitely "a golfer" and I play relatively fast, maybe too fast.

[Randy Thompson]

But my attitude is, "It's their course and their business and they can make the rules."  If they don't want me to play because my HC is too high, I'll go somewhere else.  On the other hand, obviously there is not a direct correlation between HC and speed of play, if that is what they are really interested in.  In spite of my relatively high HC, I am definitely "a golfer" and I play relatively fast, maybe too fast.

I agree with everything you say but if clubs take this attitude and enforce it, is it not bad for golf overall? Does it not piss you off that they are making assumptions that you will slow up play and may damge the course or the reputation of the course? Right now you may say, screw them I will go play somewhere else but what happens if this catches on and grows! One can have passion for golf but also try to live a balanced life devoting your time to your work, family and other areas of interest and to me if you choose to so you should not be penalized or dicriminated against as to where you can play and can´t play.

[Randy Thompson]

Randy,

In the US, I think you could easily get around it. I recall not having my handicap card when I went to play Riviera, which had a 7 handicap limit to play the back tees.  The starter let me hit my opening tee ball, and when that looked good, striped right down the middle, he said play away (I would have been the only one in the group not playing the back tees)

In Singapore, I am not so sure. I played in a casual tournament down there years ago as part of a golf show.  On one hole, after airmailing a green only to find the ball had to have dissapeared down a deep ravine, I opted to pick up, rather than go back in the fw and extend an already long round. I put something like a 10 on my card, but was DQ'ed quite vocifieriously and they refused to post my score because "I didn't finish" that hole.  While true enough, I can't imagine them monitoring that so closely in that kind of event in the US.

I also recall there was not a lot of short putt concessions, etc. over there, that would be typical here in a friendly match.  Short version, it appeared to me that there was a lot less give in whatever local rules they had over there.  

It seems the rest of the world is much more serious in respecting the basic rules of golf. There are gimmies in south america but when inside six inches not putter grip length. I have missed more than my fair share of foot to foot and half putts during the last twenty years. Mulligans on the first tee are also a hard sell for me down here. Picking up and giving yourself a ten could lead to tar and feathering not just disqualification.

[Carl Johnson]

But my attitude is, "It's their course and their business and they can make the rules."  If they don't want me to play because my HC is too high, I'll go somewhere else.  On the other hand, obviously there is not a direct correlation between HC and speed of play, if that is what they are really interested in.  In spite of my relatively high HC, I am definitely "a golfer" and I play relatively fast, maybe too fast.

I agree with everything you say but if clubs take this attitude and enforce it, is it not bad for golf overall? Does it not piss you off that they are making assumptions that you will slow up play and may damge the course or the reputation of the course?  CJ: Yes, in a sense it does, although I would rather say it is "disappointing."  I try to avoid being "pissed off" if at all possible because that makes me feel even worse about my situation.  Keep calm and carry on.

Right now you may say, screw them I will go play somewhere else but what happens if this catches on and grows!  CJ: My personal expectation is that the market will take care of the situation and that it will not catch on and grow.  If anything, I'd predict more openness in the future.

One can have passion for golf but also try to live a balanced life devoting your time to your work, family and other areas of interest and to me if you choose to so you should not be penalized or dicriminated against as to where you can play and can´t play.  CJ: Another perspective is that my home club in Charlotte is private and no one except a member, or someone playing with a member, and limited reciprocals, regardless of their HC, can play our course.  So, in a sense, Royal Portrush is less discriminating than my home course -- they allow at least certain nonmembers to play unaccompanied.  I suppose that if I was going to question a HC policy it would be at The Old Course, which is a "municipal" course.  What I do not know is whether they have the same HC limitations for Fife residents.

[Randy Thompson]

I agree with everything you say but if clubs take this attitude and enforce it, is it not bad for golf overall? Does it not piss you off that they are making assumptions that you will slow up play and may damge the course or the reputation of the course?
 CJ: Yes, in a sense it does, although I would rather say it is "disappointing."  I try to avoid being "pissed off" if at all possible because that makes me feel even worse about my situation.  Keep calm and carry on.
Carl,
What a wonderful attitude, congrats! You keep that out look and you might die being married only once and never divorced! A feat less and less achievable in today´s society! Its also a great attitude for golf, you are obviously not only a golfer but a wise man and you should always be welcomed at any golf course even if your handicapp drops to a 30!

[Brad Wilbur]

While signing in to play at the Old Course this year, another gentleman approached the starter.  He asked about going out that day, and added, "I'm a 25 handicap."  The starter replied, "You're a 24."  It took him a while to get the point, but it was nice of the starter to give him a break.

[Jud_T]

This has got to be one of the dumbest topic's I've seen on this site which is not entirely OT...

[Mark Chaplin]

I believe at TOC handicap certificates are ID checks to stop people selling on tee spots.

[RSLivingston_III]

Just my opinion.
Personally, I am not sure that 24 is low enough. I have not seen many people at that handicap that have the skill sets to hit most of the shots required at the better courses. Spend some time and get some skills. This shouldn't be like miniature golf where anybody can go out and bat balls around. Bogey golf is not that hard to achieve.The drivers license is a good analogy.
I think the comment about RCD is indicative of the attitude. That is not a public course, it is basically the Augusta National of Ireland. I would be afraid they would go out and treat it like there local muni back home.

[Steve Salmen]

On the other hand, obviously there is not a direct correlation between HC and speed of play, if that is what they are really interested in.

With all due respect to Carl, your statement above makes as much sense as Jean Van de Velde trying to wedge out of the Barry Burn. I believe the fewer times you hit the ball, the faster you will finish your round period.

With respect to Randy, why does not one try to lower their handicap to the point where they can go on a message board and get congratulated for being good enough to qualify to play a restricted course rather than blame another party's rules and have everyone think you are a whiner?

[Carl Johnson]

Just my opinion.

Just my opinion, and speaking only for myself.

Personally, I am not sure that 24 is low enough.

What is "low enough."  How about scratch?  6, 10, how about 11?

I have not seen many people at that handicap that have the skill sets to hit most of the shots required at the better courses.

The purpose of handicaps is not divide golfers by skill level, but rather to bring golfers together by offering golfers of different skill levels a way to play a more enjoyable competition among themselves.  Who decides what the "shot required" is, anyway?  The course itself doesn't speak.  I've never been told by a club pro that I am "required" to hit a shot a certain way.  I cannot accept golf as anything more than a silly little fun game between friends that is all about who can get his ball in the distant little hole from a teeing ground in the least number of strokes.

Spend some time and get some skills.

Now that I am retired, I do have more time, but just shy of age 70 I don't believe I have enough time left to get back to my lifetime low of a 14.  Sorry about that.

This shouldn't be like miniature golf where anybody can go out and bat balls around.

I'm not quite sure what "This" is, but I will still ask the question, "Why not?"  Talk about what's going to inhibit the growth of golf!

Bogey golf is not that hard to achieve.

Really?  I think we need to "get that out there."

I think the comment about RCD is indicative of the attitude.

Not sure which comment about RCD you are referring to.  In an earlier post on this thread I mentioned that RCD did not have a HC requirement.

That [RCD, I assume] is not a public course, it is basically the Augusta National of Ireland.

My suspicion is that neither RCD nor ANGC has a handicap requirement for members, having determined that there are much more desirable attributes of golfers they'd like to associate with than their handicaps.

I would be afraid they would go out and treat it like there local muni back home.

So, a 23-year-old 9 HC muni player would "treat a course better" than a 70-year-old lifetime club player who's a 24?  

All that having been said, I still have no personal objection to a private club of which I am not a member keeping me off their course for any reason.  What I do object to is elitist attitudes (not pointing a finger at anyone in particular) about golfing skill levels.  Again, just my opinion.

[Carl Johnson]

On the other hand, obviously there is not a direct correlation between HC and speed of play, if that is what they are really interested in.

With all due respect to Carl, your statement above makes as much sense as Jean Van de Velde trying to wedge out of the Barry Burn.

I'm not sure what your point is here, but my recollection is that upon reflection in the heat of the battle in a major championship, a place with which I have no personal experience, Mr. Van de Velde he did not actually try to do that.  On the other hand, I did not try to hit my second at Carnoustie over the burn, but rather played short, hit an 8 iron to green and two putted for my bogey.  Too bad Mr. Van de Veld did not have me on his bag.

I believe the fewer times you hit the ball, the faster you will finish your round period.

Everything else being equal, I do believe that you are correct.

With respect to Randy, why does not one try to lower their handicap to the point where they can go on a message board and get congratulated for being good enough to qualify to play a restricted course rather than blame another party's rules and have everyone think you are a whiner?

Agreed, sort of, but I don't agree with the "whiner" characterization.  My sense is that, in fact, there are members of this site who principal purpose hereon is to be recognized for having a low handicap.  But how low?  Well, let's just say that the standard is "my" handicap and lower.  It's sort of like in the running world subculture: "If you're my pace or faster, you're a runner.  If you're slower than my pace, you're a jogger."

[George Pazin]

Nice posts, Carl.

The rule(s) in question tend to be a poor effort at a valid question, imho. But I can't say I know what the answer is.

I certainly understand Randy's stance, particularly in light of his father's level of play. And I also understand - though don't really agree with - Mr. Livingston's view that 24 might not be low enough.

There are 30s who play quick and scratches who play slooooooooooooow; there's scratches who play quick and casual and there are 30s who grind every stroke. There are all kinds of golfers who are delight to share a round with, and all kinds who couldn't be less pleasant company.

I think most of these rules wouldn't exist if rangers had the ability to pull people off the course who obviously didn't belong - and by that, I mean beginners who make me look like Ben Hogan (and for those who don't know, I'm the worst golfer on the site, sadly). And as soon as you ignore such rules, someone comes along who ruins the day for everyone.

My best friend recently treated me to an unbelievable round at his home course, Mountain Ridge. I couldn't have had a nicer day, shooting a 108 (never held up anyone in my group or behind my group, either). I hadn't touched a club in over 2 years, and since my son was born almost 7 years ago, I barely played before my previous rounds (at Pete Dye GC with a bunch of great people from golfclubatlas!), easily less than 6 rounds per year. Still, I can hit the ball pretty well 80+% of the time (it's those others that get ugly); I could easily fool the most observant starter in the world - or fail miserably in front of anyone. My friend thinks I'm crazy because I haven't accepted numerous offers to play some of the world's top 10 courses, but I consider it a form of respect to those who have been kind enough to extend those offers to me.

It's never as simple as "practice more and earn the right", and certainly nothing close to "achieve this numerical standard and you're fine".

Hope you don't find yourself in too much of a pickle, Randy - you're always welcome at my home muni.

[Mickey Boland]

All of my foursome group was asked for handicap cards at TOC a few years ago.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Here in Germany most courses have a HCP 36 limit on week-ends. That doesn't count for members, though, only for visitors.

But you'll have to consider that the situation is a bit different here in that 99.9% of all golfers have a handicap.

Ulrich

[Randy Thompson]

But 36 is the highest that exsists, which means anyone having a handicapp can play, no discrimination there.

[Roger Wolfe]

From the Raleigh Country Club website...

Membership by Invitation Only
A membership to Raleigh Country Club is by invitation only.  The two membership classes offered are;  the Golfing Class (Full or Corporate Golf) and the Social Class (Social).  Memberships within the Golfing Class are offered upon availability only.  The golfing class is currently reserved for 350 members.  To be considered as a member within the golfing class, the application must be sponsored by one member.
 
Consistent with the Club's philosophy, it is highly recommended that new applicants should have a respectable USGA handicap index of 15 or less. However, memberships are awarded to qualified applicants with a handicap index exceeding 15, provided that they have a sincere appreciation for the game of golf and are committed to improving their playing skills with the tremendous resources that our members enjoy. With Raleigh Country Club being very unique and course conditions providing pure golf for the true golfer, becoming a better player is essential in maximizing the RCC golfing experience.

Raleigh Country Club is a non-equity club with no membership assessments as described in the Membership Plan, with annual membership dues billed monthly.  For more information regarding membership, please submit your request electronically at membership@raleighcc.com or our membership office at 919-757-8537.

Again... if you can afford to be restrictive... enjoy it.  It is simple supply and demand.  If you don't like it... play somewhere else.  However, there are lots of golfers with handicaps above 15 who are a joy to play with.

[John Kavanaugh]

However, there are lots of golfers with handicaps above 15 who are a joy to play with.

Until you play against them in a member/guest. 

[Sean_A]

Membership based on handicap and visiter restrictions absed on handicap are two different things. However, in either case, if the clubs in question are private, its nobody's business but their own.  Who ever said individual clubs have an obligation to grow the game?  Why is growing the game deemed so important and is it okay to grow the game with rank beginners?  It seems to me that this end of the business should in the main be handled on courses designed for beginners.  Think about how a child learns the game - that process is what adult newbies should use as a model. 

Ciao 

[Roger Wolfe]

However, there are lots of golfers with handicaps above 15 who are a joy to play with.

Until you play against them in a member/guest. 

I am smart enough to play WITH them in a member/guest...

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