[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks Matthew.

There is no credit in either Doak or Byrdy for the black and white plan. Presumably ANGC.

Bob
Would be good if you could ask Catherine about its provenance. Interesting that you have seen it before, but I hadn't until the other day.

[TEPaul]

MatthewM:

The 14th green despite its shape has some of the boldest contours I've ever seen on a putting green.

[Matthew Mollica]

I agree with you Tom.

I was lucky enough to visit Augusta in 2001 & can appreciate what you mean.

The movement in some of those greens seems incredible.
Especially 5,13,14, and some of the slopes like those on 7,9 and 16.

But do you not think the green shapes are largely generic & ovoid in nature?

MM

[TEPaul]

"But do you not think the green shapes are largely generic & ovoid in nature?"


MatthewM:

Good question. I've never tried to analyze the basic shapes of ANGC's greens today to compare any of them to the shapes they were built to and originally were. I do know an awful lot of American greens got rounded out during the era of the Triplex mower. It was very hard to get them into complex peripheral green shapes and corners and such.

[BCrosby]

Mathew asks: "But do you not think the green shapes are largely generic & ovoid in nature?"

Anything but. Find a copy of Stan Byrdy's excellent book. It has photos and drawings of the original ANGC greens. I can't think of a course built with fewer ovoid greens. There were several boomerangs, several redan-like greens jacked up on on steroids, and others that were pretty wild. So much so that I sometimes wonder if MacK and Jones weren't having a little fun at the expense of more traditional notions of golf architecture. 

Bob

[Neil_Crafter]

Bob
In fairness I think Matthew had referred to how the green shapes are today, rather than back when first built.

[john_stiles]

Although it is the general plan for ANGC, the 1932 Olmsted Brothers plan does show a few things of interest.

It provides a topo with the course illustrated to some detail.

For instance, the centerline bunker on the 11th not illustrated on the Mackenzie plans, is shown in the Olmsted drawing.  The 11th centerline bunker was eliminated very early.

The Olmsted plan doesn't show the proposed 19th hole,  but rather the practice area seen in the early photos upon opening.
The present area of the par 3 course, and the area west of no 1.,   were shown as about 23 parcels for future development (presume members cabins).


The plan is illustrated in   ‘The Making of the Masters',  David Owen, 1999.

[BCrosby]

"For instance, the centerline bunker on the 11th not illustrated on the Mackenzie plans, is shown in the Olmsted drawing.  The 11th centerline bunker was eliminated very early."

John - A couple of years ago Craig Disher sent me an aerial of ANGC from '41 or  '42. The c/l bunkers (actually there were two small bunkers) on 11 are still there. I suspect they were taken out by RTJ in '48.

Jones had them added late in the design process. They were based on the c/l bunker on the 4th at Woking, a hole Jones admired. (I wonder if Jones ever met John Low?)

Neil - Yes and unhappily, there are today a lot of ovoid green shapes at ANGC.

Bob 

[john_stiles]

Bob,

Now that I blew up the image, I can see the centerline fairway bunkers on the 11th in the June 1932 B&W.

Wonder about John Low and Bobby Jones ?    Jones played in 1921 Open at TOC (infamous WD),  and 1921 British Amateur at Hoylake, and 1926 Walker Cup at TOC.     Maybe they did meet.

Low was chairman of R & A rules committee for a few years, long time captain of O & C team, and certainly would have wanted to meet the best American player.  No ?   Low died in 1929.   

[Neil_Crafter]

Apologies for dredging up this thread from the past, but I have some new information that I thought I'd share.

The third plan, the lovely watercoloured one dated November 1931, I can confirm is hanging in the board room of Alston & Bird LLP. GCA poster Ken Banks had cause to take his daughter for an interview there and was able to take some phone pics to confirm it. I will not post any of the pics he sent me given any potential ramifications. Thanks Ken!

And as Stan Byrdy credited the other coloured ANGC plan to Alston and Bird, then it would appear that they hold both the coloured ANGC plans. Presumably the club has just the B&W one - makes you almost feel sorry for them - but not quite!

[BCrosby]

Neil - That would make sense. Let me know if I can help with A&B. 

Bob

[KBanks]

Neil, thanks for circling back on this thread. I was not aware that Alston & Bird had both 1931 plans. I was last there about fifteen years ago, and think the July 1931 plan may have hung in the Jones room then. The Jones collection is in a different conference room now, and some of the other items on display are different as well.

It seems fair ANGC has only one of three MacKenzie plans, in view of his unpaid fee!

Ken

[Neil_Crafter]

Ken, in view of the money they owed him, I reckon they are lucky to have even one!

I took the optimistic approach of writing a year or two back to ANGC from The Alister Mackenzie Society of the UK asking if they could help us out with copies of some letters of Mackenzie to Cifford Roberts that Owen quoted from in his book. Unsurprisingly still waiting for a reply...... won't hold my breath.

[Jim Nugent]

Neil, I assume it's too late or idiotic to bring suit against ANGC? 

[BCrosby]

Jim -

Not only has the statute of limitations long since run, it is also likely that the ANGC receivership filed in the mid-30's expunged the debt.

Bob 

[Neil_Crafter]

Jim
And I think you would have to prove you were an heir of Mac and as he didn't have any children that might be a little hard. I'm sure ANGC long since covered themselves against the likelihood of any such claims, as Bob suggested.

[Bill_McBride]

"For instance, the centerline bunker on the 11th not illustrated on the Mackenzie plans, is shown in the Olmsted drawing.  The 11th centerline bunker was eliminated very early."

John - A couple of years ago Craig Disher sent me an aerial of ANGC from '41 or  '42. The c/l bunkers (actually there were two small bunkers) on 11 are still there. I suspect they were taken out by RTJ in '48.

Jones had them added late in the design process. They were based on the c/l bunker on the 4th at Woking, a hole Jones admired. (I wonder if Jones ever met John Low?)

Neil - Yes and unhappily, there are today a lot of ovoid green shapes at ANGC.

Bob 

If there were TWO small centerline bunkers, perhaps the model is really 16's Principal's Nose at TOC!

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