[Patrick_Mucci]

If you take Dr AM at face value on page 135 of "The Spirit of St Andrews",
It would appear that Raynor and Hollins engaged in a debate over the 16th hole.
A debate that hinged not only on what par for the hole should be, but a debate that included the configuration and location of the hole.

If that's the case, and Dr AM built the hole as decided by Hollins and Raynor, did Dr AM adopt all of Raynor's routing ?

In other words, once the 16th tee and green was sited in their current location, where else could the 17th and 18th holes go.
Certainly the 17th tee had to be near the 16th green.

And, if the tee for # 16 was established as the current tee, certainly the green for # 15 had to be nearby.

It would appear that holes 16, 17 and 18 were predetermined by Raynor's routing.

It would also appear that the 15th green/hole was predetermined by Raynor.

If either is the case, is it probable that Dr AM's routing was merely Raynor's routing with some tweaking ?

[Bill_McBride]

Don't know about that - I don't think anyone has seen Raynor's routing to know - but not long ago I saw a Mackenzie routing that had some of the holes in different locations.  Not sure where.........

But there would be a lot of different ways to route the majority of the holes even with the three cliffside holes in place, don't you think?  The way a number of holes play off and around and into those two big dunes is very typical of Mackenzie routings (Meadow Club, Valley Club, Royal Melbourne come to mind).  None of the Raynor routings I've seen seem to take as good advantage of such features as those of Mackenzie.

[Jim Nugent]

Hollins probably knew Raynor's routing.  And I think I read she worked closely with Mac at CPC, once he came on board.  So real easy to believe AM knew what Raynor planned.

Does anyone know when Raynor went to CPC, and when he did his routing?  Was he still working on the project, when he died, or had he already moved on?        

BTW, Pat, if Marion and Mac worked closely together on CPC, seems likely to me that Mackenzie got the story about 16 from Marion.  If he didn't route 16, wouldn't he want to know who did?  And if someone else told him, the story is so interesting, the hole so remarkable, wouldn't he likely check with her?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Nugent,

When you take the King's schilling, you do the King's bidding.

Tom Doak and Jack Nicklaus wanted to make the 18th at Sebonack a difficult par 4.
Mike Pascucci wanted it to be a more benign par 5.
Who do you think won that debate ?

If Hollins was the driving force behind CPC, and Raynor had already sited the green for his par 4, but, Marion prefered it as a par 3 and she was paying the bills/salary, I like the chances of the hole being a par 3 irrespective of who the architect was.

If Marion Hollins told Dr AM the story, why wouldn't Dr AM state that Marion Hollins relayed the particular event directly to him instead of refering to the story in the third party ?

But, let's not divert the thread.

In another thread George Bahto indicated that he might know where the Raynor routing is, so, I'll ask George if he can shed more light on that.

And, I'll ask a local boy, David Moriarty if he can check with the town/county/state to see if a routing plan was filed in 1924-25-26 or 27 with any of those agencies

[Jim Nugent]

In another thread George Bahto indicated that he might know where the Raynor routing is, so, I'll ask George if he can shed more light on that.

And, I'll ask a local boy, David Moriarty if he can check with the town/county/state to see if a routing plan was filed in 1924-25-26 or 27 with any of those agencies

If George or David can turn that up, it will be a true hidden gem. 

[Kevin_Reilly]

If the Raynor routing were in existence, I'm sure Geoff S. would have included it in his CPC book.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

I am hardly a local boy in Monterey, and am not really a  go-to-guy when it comes to things MacKenzie.  

There are some very able researchers who have looked extensively into MacKenzie's life in general, and his work in Northern California, in particular.  They are the "go to" guys on this stuff.   Hopefully, if they have not been mortally insulted by your Hollins thread, they might chime in here.  Or, they might just tell you to pound sand.  Beautiful, wind-blown sand, like the dunes at Cypress.  

As for me, I have managed to stumble into a few interesting tidbits here and there, and they might have some bearing on the discussion . . .

So far as I can tell there was a routing (or at least a partial routing) in place prior to MacKenzie's direct involvement in the project.  The legend of Miss Hollins at the 16th suggests it, as does a different CPC legend.  That and a timeline.

We've probably all heard of how Hollins and Mackenzie wanted at tee out on the rocks behind the current 18th tee?  There is even a plan for the bridge in Geoff Shackelford's excellent book on CPC.    Also, here is a photo of the proposed tee location from Golf Illustrated . . .



The caption mentions that "A golf architect has just erected a little marker . . . " and the marker or stake is visible on top of the  large rock on the right side of the photo.  Pretty cool, huh?  Here is the rub . . .

This photo appeared in the December 1925 edition of Golf Illustrated.   But according to Sean Tully, Neil Crafter, and the able researchers who have looked into it, Dr. Mackenzie did not arrive in the U.S. until January 20, 1926, was not on the West Coast until about a week later, and did not receive the Cypress commission until February 1926. (Raynor had died in January 1926.)  So it was seems rather unlikely that Mackenzie placed the stake for the tee.  

Does this means that Raynor had staked out this tee and/or the rest of the course?   Not necessarily.   There were other talented people around, including Hollins and Hunter.   That said, Raynor may be the most likely suspect, given that he had reportedly been hired to do it, and given his work on the Peninsula up to that point.   Whoever placed the stake, it wasn't Mackenzie unless he literally mailed or phoned it in.

Another interesting tidbit is from W.D. Richardson's brief obituary in the Metropolitan Musings column, American Golfer, March 1926:

His work will be carried on by Charles H. Banks, his associate. The layouts on which they were at work when Mr. Raynor died are W. K Vanderbilt's Deepdale course at Great Neck, Long Island; Cypress Point in California; the Honolulu course in Hawaii; Rock Spring at Orange, New Jersey; Lookout Mountain in Tennessee; Statesville in North Carolina; Yeaman's Hall at Charleston, South Carolina; and the Blue Mound Country Club at Milwaukee.

Maybe W.D. Richardson meant MPCC?   That seems a stretch, but who knows?

Anyway, as I said, these are far from definitive answers, but they are probably worth keeping in mind.  

[Jim Nugent]

If Raynor had finished CPC, I wonder if he would have built a bunch of template holes.  If so, which would they have been? 

[Ed Oden]

Sorry in advance for asking a question not germane to this thread, but "Statesville in North Carolina"?  First I've ever heard of that.  Anyone know what is being referred to here?  I wasn't aware that Raynor did anything there.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Have you or anyone on this thread read David Outerbridge's biography of Marion Hollins? If not, I suggest you read it.

It was Marion's idea to do a private club on the Monterey Peninsula (CPC) and she convinced Morse of it. It was pretty obviously Marion who got Raynor to get involved before he died. When one begins to understand the connections of Marion and her family in New York and Long Island in the early days one can understand why (her father Harry Hollins was a founding member of NGLA and Marion played there a lot). I suppose she got Raynor to do one of the Monterey Peninsula courses too (Macdonald was asked but he refused).

As for that lost Raynor CPC routing that would be one of the most important finds in GCA history, in my opinion. There have been some very good researchers looking for it for years and so far it hasn't turned up. Not that it may not, of course, as one never knows where things like that may be hiding. Some pretty interesting stuff heretofore unknown turned up this year about Pebble Beach in the early years.

[Neil_Crafter]

Here is the 1926 plan for Cypress Point, as drawn up by San Francisco artist Albert Darrows, based upon a sketch that Mackenzie provided him with. I expect the plan came out of Mackenzie's first visit to the US and to Cypress in Jan to March 1926.

How it differs from Raynor's plan is very hard to say, but as Hollins was there with both of them, its fair to say she had her influence, so some holes would be routed the same. And the final on the ground routing differed from this routing too.



As for 16, here's an enlargement showing the hole as Mackenzie first sketched it. Please note the rear tee that is shown giving the dotted alternative line of play as a two shot hole. The card on this plan shows the hole as a 200 yarder, so perhaps when Hollins made her shot it was not as long a carry from the rear tee today. From what I have read, Mackenzie was not all that confident about the hole as a par three, and in an early article on the course, published in The Fairway magazine in November 1928 (and Golf Illustrated UK) he lists the hole with a championship length of 350 yards, compared to the regular length of 240 yards. Geoff S in his book suggests that Mac was keeping his options open, and if play as a long par 3 was too problematic he would then lengthen the hole to a two shotter by building that championship tee so that the hole could play at 350 - presumably there was enough space between 15 and 16 to allow for that.

So, Mac's first iteration for 16 was a shorter hole, some 40 yards shorter in fact. And Hollins shot across the chasm may well have been played from ahead of where the current back tee sits, making the carry less that 200 yards.

[Bill_McBride]

The routing posted above is the one I referred to in post #1 when I mentioned recently seeing a Mackenzie routing different from the final layout.  Notice how there is a par 3 #13?  And #8 doesn't appear to dogleg around the large dune as it does today.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks for posting that Neil.

There are a number of interesting things about that rendering, not the least of which is the shape and location of the green.

The rendering also seems slightly different than the plan from February 1926 as it appears on the inside cover of Geoff's book.  

For comparison, here is my approximation of that 1926 plan as seen on Jeff's book . . .

[Dan King]

TEPaul writes:
Have you or anyone on this thread read David Outerbridge's biography of Marion Hollins? If not, I suggest you read it.

I'm not sure about Outerbridge's book. He doesn't really say where he gets his info. At the beginning in the Acknowledgment he mentions some of the people supplying him with information and the back has a short Bibliography. He changes some of the info about Hollins contribution on 16 from what MacKenzie said without saying where he got the additional information. pg. 122. Anybody know Outerbridge? Maybe he can shed some light on why his version differs slightly from MacKenzie's.

Cheers,
Dan King

To Marion Hollins, the creative genius who built three country clubs. The 16th hole at Cypress Point -- a hole she personally designed -- may well be golf's most beautiful.
To Marion Hollins, the pragmatic dreamer who orchestrated the sprawling Playground of the West -- Pasatiempo Country Club and Estates.
To Marion Hollins, financier and feminist, oil wildcatter, social arbiter of the West, beloved friend of the wealthy and celebrated, party giver sans pareil. The slopes of Pasatiempo still echo her laughter.
To Marion Hollins, horsewoman, national golf champion, expert polo player, race car driver, tennis player -- perhaps the finest all-around athlete of the 1920s.
 --Betty Hicks, former National Amateur Golf Champion, in a toast to her memory.

[George_Bahto]

fm Jim Nugent:

"In another thread George Bahto indicated that he might know where the Raynor routing is, so, I'll ask George if he can shed more light on that"

I do NOT know where the routing is - I heard about someone seeing the routing the routing in 1974

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neil Crafter,

You sly dog you, you've been hiding this information all the while.

MacKenzie's rendering and plan has # 16 as a 200 yard hole, not a 220 or 230 yard hole, which makes more sense.

Do you know the exact date of the plan illustrated by Darrow.

The reason I ask, is, the closer to Feb, 1926, the more likely that the plan is an adaptation of Raynor's.

ie, the earlier the illustration was crafted would seem to weight the origin of the plan/routing at Raynor's feet.

It would seem, as I hypothesized earlier that the last 3 to 4 holes were Raynor's plan.
How much more of the plan is/was/might be Raynor's would be fascinating to know.

More later.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neil,

For how long have you been in possession of that illustration by Darrows showing # 16 as a 200 yard par 3. ?

[Ed Oden]

Neil,

For how long have you been in possession of that illustration by Darrows showing # 16 as a 200 yard par 3. ?

Pat, while I don't know when Neil acquired the Cypress drawing, he posted it on my Compilation of Maps thread back in February.

[Jim Nugent]

Couple of questions about the map Neil posted.  I take it the 200 yard hole is the one with a line from the tee to the green, with the #16 in the middle.  Yes?  How does that hole differ from the one played today?  Is the tee closer to the green?

Second, as David pointed out, the #16 green on the drawing looks real different from the green in the aerial.  I'm struggling to see where there is room to make a green like Darrow drew.  Seems like the back of the green would fall on today's tee.  Is there more space between the green and the ocean than it looks like in the aerial?  

Pat started a thread a while back, asking if CPC 16 is the ideal place for a Biarritz.  Well, on AM's plan the green is long and narrow.  Room enough for a swale, if someone like, say, Raynor had that in mind.  

Finally, you guys who have played CPC: how do you think 16 would work as the par 4 shown in the Darrow drawing?  

I don't know if anyone else cares, but I'm still real interested to learn which holes at CPC might have made good templates.  I assume Raynor had some of those in mind: did he make any courses without templates?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Forget the drawing, it's just that a drawing, a sketch.

The critical information is in the KEY, indicating the yardages on each hole, each nine and the 18 hole course.

The yardage on # 16 is listed as 200 yards.

That's all you need to know.

The exact location of the tee and green are secondary to the yardage.

[DMoriarty]

Neil Crafter,

You sly dog you, you've been hiding this information all the while.

MacKenzie's rendering and plan has # 16 as a 200 yard hole, not a 220 or 230 yard hole, which makes more sense.

Patrick,   I explained all this to you at the beginning of the other thread.  I think maybe you ignore reasonable posts and respond to the rest.  From my post on the other thread . . .

All that said, I am not sure she was hitting from the current tee.  It is not at all clear that the tee is now located in the exact same position as when Miss Hollins was demonstrating the viability of the hole as a par three.  

In fact, the inside cover of Geoff Shackelford's CPC book displays AM's 1926 plan, and the par three tee was substantially left, at about the location of the next tee up, and from there it only measured  207 yards to the center of the green, with the shot traveling right along the shoreline.  Also, as of this plan, the par 4 option was still ther, with two tee locations, one back toward the 15th green (337 yards on the marked lines) and the other up on the hill behind and golfer's left of the current tee (267 yards.)  Here is an approximation of the 1926 plan marked on the aerial.

Do you know the exact date of the plan illustrated by Darrow.

The reason I ask, is, the closer to Feb, 1926, the more likely that the plan is an adaptation of Raynor's.

ie, the earlier the illustration was crafted would seem to weight the origin of the plan/routing at Raynor's feet.

I don't know about the Darrow drawing, but the plan Mackenzie plan on the inside cover of Geoff Shackelford's book is dated February 1926.  Given that CBM didn't arrive in California until January 28, 1926 and that he did not get the CPC commission until February 1926, this plan was produced very early in the process.

[Neil_Crafter]

Pat
I wasn't deliberately being a sly dog. I have had that plan for a couple of years now, and posted an extract showing the 18th on a thread a year or so ago. Just when your thread on the routing popped up I remembered the plan and decided to post it - and of course checked the length.

And being the kind spirited co-operative researcher that I am, I willingly brought it forward. I do suspect that Marion's shot was not from where the current back tee is now, but whether the carry she made was 200 yards, less or more we will never know for certain. What I think is fair to say that it is very likely she made the carry, but from where exactly is the moot point.

Darrow's plan is not exactly the same costline as you get from Google, and he should be granted some artistic licence.

The green shapes, bunkers etc, way of showing tees and flags are all consistent with Mac's hand and I believe Darrow had a basic sketch from Mac that he turned into a more finished drawing. Mackenzie was in the US only once in 1926, from jan to early March. Of course Mac could have done the sketch that Darrow based his upon later in the year and mailed it across for Darrow to do his bit. I can't imagine Mac followed Raynor's routing all that closely myself.

[Neil_Crafter]

and for those interested in finding the holy grail of lost routings, I have a hunch that Gordon Ratliff might know something about it. Anyone care to follow up who knows him?

[Sean_A]

I agree with Tim, the sketch doesn't seem to bare any relationship to what is actually on the ground. 

The other odd bit of the sketch is the furthest right (as we look at it) tee.  Why wouldn't that be marked as a par 3?  The hole looks minimally longer than from the proposed par 3 tee over water and we know there were some long par 3s in existence at the time. 

David

I would be surprised if Dr Mac didn't finish a plan in the first month after seeing CPC.  He was extraordinarily busy at this time.  Whether or not that implies Dr Mac worked off Raynor's routing is another matter.  I think it highly possible that some of the two routings would be very similar especially given that we know Raynor had a hole routed where the present 16th is.  How much is similar - who knows.  I think a guy like Doak might be able to make some educated guesses given the 16th and its surrounding holes and what he knows about Dr Mac designs.  It would be very interesting indeed to see the possible alternative routings that Dr Mac may have considered.

Ciao

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul writes:
Have you or anyone on this thread read David Outerbridge's biography of Marion Hollins? If not, I suggest you read it.

I'm not sure about Outerbridge's book. He doesn't really say where he gets his info. At the beginning in the Acknowledgment he mentions some of the people supplying him with information and the back has a short Bibliography. He changes some of the info about Hollins contribution on 16 from what MacKenzie said without saying where he got the additional information. pg. 122. Anybody know Outerbridge? Maybe he can shed some light on why his version differs slightly from MacKenzie's."




Dan:

I don't know where Outerbridge got all his information or where he got what he said about Mackenzie's story on p. 122 of the Hollins biography, "Champion in a Man's World." What I do know is his wife, Lilias, is Marion's grandniece.

George Holland and I did speak with David Outerbridge about the book and his researching of it about 3-4 years ago but it's too late to get him to shed any more light on it now (he died 2-3 years ago). We did speak to Lilias after he died and she did say we could have the unsold books but we did not follow up on it and it seems they have all been sold to Cypress Point where they are now on sale in the pro shop. That's probably the best place for them as there seems not much question that Cypress Point was Marion's idea and that she was the driving force behind the club and probably a lot to do with the golf course as well. After all, she was the one who took the option from Morse and the Monterey Improvement Company to do the club and course (the first private club there).

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