Who Designed Leatherstocking?

[George_Bahto]

It had to be the early 1990s when someone tipped me off about the course - I think it was  Bruce Hepner. The course had not been touched much recently at that point and I saw a lot of features that made me pretty suspicious about who did the original architecture.

I also got a scorecard from the Ralph Kennedy  collection dated 1941 - he had holes 9 - 10 - 11 and 12 marked as holes of interest (to him) .... by the way the scorecard is sign by the now famous "Len Rayner, pro"

There certainly was some features of CBM/SR on the stlye of holes - if it was Bruce who suggfested I go there, he must have thought so as well.



On another trip there (while Susan Clark was in the process of raising the level of the chotel to 5-star), the super, Bernie Bannis and  I went thru a lot of boxes ans stuff stored to see if we could find something more difinitive about who built the course. Nothing substantial showed up.

It was always the Emmet "reference."

When I first came on the 4-page article written by him (which I had somehow missed) I figured, since he wrote the article it would tell the story ................  yeah, well ............ in the article he never said anything about who built the course ... great picture, a nice reference to the Road hole and its green that is now gone - well the tee is still there.

[JNC Lyon]

It had to be the early 1990s when someone tipped me off about the course - I think it was  Bruce Hepner. The course had not been touched much recently at that point and I saw a lot of features that made me pretty suspicious about who did the original architecture.

I also got a scorecard from the Ralph Kennedy  collection dated 1941 - he had holes 9 - 10 - 11 and 12 marked as holes of interest (to him) .... by the way the scorecard is sign by the now famous "Len Rayner, pro"

There certainly was some features of CBM/SR on the stlye of holes - if it was Bruce who suggfested I go there, he must have thought so as well.



On another trip there (while Susan Clark was in the process of raising the level of the chotel to 5-star), the super, Bernie Bannis and  I went thru a lot of boxes ans stuff stored to see if we could find something more difinitive about who built the course. Nothing substantial showed up.

It was always the Emmet "reference."

When I first came on the 4-page article written by him (which I had somehow missed) I figured, since he wrote the article it would tell the story ................  yeah, well ............ in the article he never said anything about who built the course ... great picture, a nice reference to the Road hole and its green that is now gone - well the tee is still there.

There was a Road Hole at Leatherstocking?  Where exactly?

If there are some CBM/Raynor features at Leatherstocking, couldn't we chalk that up to the influence of NGLA member Clark? 

I think the idea of "Raynor features" at Leatherstocking has been way overstated.  There is a steep grass bunker on 7, a modified Reverse Redan at 9, a modified punchbowl green at 15, and a diagonal tee shot at 18 (though I wouldn't call the hole a Cape--the green does not jut out into the water).  Aside from that, the course has no Raynor template holes and a ton of non-linear shaping that would suggest Raynor did not have major input.  If there was a Road Hole at Leatherstocking, that might change things a bit.

I think this idea that Raynor had an influence on Leatherstocking comes from Jay Flemma's article two years ago.  The article, frankly, was filled with errors.  Furthermore, I have found no listing of Raynor's name in association with Leatherstocking, whereas Emmet, Rayner, and Clark are all listed constantly.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Perhaps the difference is simply that this thread is relying on presenting factual evidence and letting us each determine what it means.

It is not relying on specious assumptions or bizarre interpretations of factual evidence, refreshingly.

Why would I care if this was in philly?

Joe has unearthed mistaken attrobutions at plenty of philly coirses including Park instead of Flynn at Philmont and let the facts speak for themselves, which we all accepted as proof.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Pure hunch based on the type of holes and so many emmet references...I could very well be wrong.

[George_Bahto]

JNC:

Perhaps these pics from the Emmet-written article will help

Road hole from the tee (the green is long gone) ....the tee is on present hole-4


Reversed Redan
            

18th green



Hole-3 was a great par-4 called “Sahara-Crater” - if you successfully carried the
crater” (very deep pit) you could get a turbo-boost and reach the green - I think the drive was over 200 yards to clear (about the key word) - very interesting hole

gb

[JNC Lyon]

George,

The Reversed Redan is still there, albeit with excessive tree growth.

The "Road Hole" tee is now on the present 10th, I believe.  I wonder where the green was in relation to today's green.

The 18th green looks similar to today's green, though it is labeled here as a one-shotter.

I could see how the 3rd played as a short par four over the crater, which still exists today off to the side of the present third hole.  I always wondered why that crater was not incorporated into the design, though now it seems that it was part of the design at one point.

Some of these holes suggest Raynor influence (Road, Redan, Sahara).  However, I still point out that NGLA member Clark could have been responsible for this as well.  Furthermore, only the Reverse Redan (very loose definition in my opinion) still exists today.  As superintendent, Len Rayner oversaw the changes to all of these holes in his tenure between 1919 and 1955.  Anything that happened in those years is likely his responsibility more than any other individual.

[George_Bahto]

The Reversed Redan is still there, albeit with excessive tree growth.

The "Road Hole" tee is now on the present 10th, I believe.  I wonder where the green was in relation to today's green.   
gb: ... the green was up by the building (clubhouse?) over in the right corner

The 18th green looks similar to today's green, though it is labeled here as a one-shotter.

I could see how the 3rd played as a short par four over the crater, which still exists today off to the side of the present third hole.  I always wondered why that crater was not incorporated into the design, though now it seems that it was part of the design at one point.
gb; it was an important part of the design as far as I'm concerned - a great hole - they moved the tee to the right so you wouldn't have to play over the crater .... I'm sure it slowed the round down a lot     BUT,     on the original hole config, there was the way to play around the crater on the right

Some of these holes suggest Raynor influence (Road, Redan, Sahara).  However, I still point out that NGLA member Clark could have been responsible for this as well.  Furthermore, only the Reverse Redan (very loose definition in my opinion) still exists today.  As superintendent, Len Rayner oversaw the changes to all of these holes in his tenure between 1919 and 1955.  Anything that happened in those years is likely his responsibility more than any other individual.

gb: listen, I agree, this is not a Seth Raynor course at all - I'm just saying it shows the Macdonald/NGLA influence to the Emmet/Clark/ RaynEr course.

I have an old plan around here tht the super gave me on my first visit

[JNC Lyon]

The Reversed Redan is still there, albeit with excessive tree growth.

The "Road Hole" tee is now on the present 10th, I believe.  I wonder where the green was in relation to today's green.   
gb: ... the green was up by the building (clubhouse?) over in the right corner

The 18th green looks similar to today's green, though it is labeled here as a one-shotter.

I could see how the 3rd played as a short par four over the crater, which still exists today off to the side of the present third hole.  I always wondered why that crater was not incorporated into the design, though now it seems that it was part of the design at one point.
gb; it was an important part of the design as far as I'm concerned - a great hole - they moved the tee to the right so you wouldn't have to play over the crater .... I'm sure it slowed the round down a lot     BUT,     on the original hole config, there was the way to play around the crater on the right

Some of these holes suggest Raynor influence (Road, Redan, Sahara).  However, I still point out that NGLA member Clark could have been responsible for this as well.  Furthermore, only the Reverse Redan (very loose definition in my opinion) still exists today.  As superintendent, Len Rayner oversaw the changes to all of these holes in his tenure between 1919 and 1955.  Anything that happened in those years is likely his responsibility more than any other individual.

gb: listen, I agree, this is not a Seth Raynor course at all - I'm just saying it shows the Macdonald/NGLA influence to the Emmet/Clark/ RaynEr course.

I have an old plan around here tht the super gave me on my first visit

That crater hole sounds phenomenal, and I wish it was still in play (though the current par three 3rd is very cool).

I would love to see the old plan if possible.

[George_Bahto]

itz a large 1" = 100 irrigation plan from 1993 - the great part is that is shows slearly all the bunkering at the time - I wonderif there is an older one hanging around. I haven't been there in years

I think I made (my version) drawing based on that plan - I have to look

[TEPaul]

“Mike
Why is this thread any more awesome than the other threads that attempted to discover who did what?”

“Hilarious...if Leatherstocking was in Philadelphia I don't think this thread would be so awesome.”


Tom MacWood:

If it’s awesome, one reason would be because you haven’t been on it. Honestly, you are a good little mole for finding stuff sometimes even if much of it is irrelevent but you really shouldn’t be allowed to analyze anything or talk or write about any of it. When you do that’s when things definitely get hilarious! Honestly, you should be given an award for combined idiocy/hilariousness for your scenario and perpetual defense of it of Barker jumping off the train from New York to Atlanta for a day or hour at Ardmore Pa to design Merion East. God Almighty, where in the world would golf architectural history be without someone like you???  


Georgie Boy:

Those are some awesome photos you posted. Keep it going!

And John Lyon, you've been on a roll recently also. You keep it going too. By the way, it was good to see you the other day up at Mountain Ridge.

[John Foley]

George

Great pics!!

Would love to see your plans and try and come up with what has happened over time.

I had thought the holes across the road (the current 9-12) we're part of the 1919 additional 9 holes but that appears to not be the case.

That appears to be the current 18th green which I do recall someone saying used to be a par 3, but that may have been in the 1909 plan and changed for 1919.

There is an old painting (1940's I think) hanging in the bar, but I did not get a picture. I do recall that it does show the original 3'rd hole playing across the crater.

[JNC Lyon]

John,

I'm not completely sure that those holes 9-12 were not part of the 1919 add-on.  George, what years are those photos from?  Remember, Rayner redid nearly every hole when he got there, so the original 9 holes has probably been completely altered.

It is a little sad that the gorge hole is gone. I may have to head over to Leatherstocking to see that original plan.

Tom,

It was good to see you as well.  Hopefully this new source can yield information on other courses in Upstate NY that remain a mystery.

[George_Bahto]

The article was written by Emmet and was publishd in Golf Illustrated in August 1921

a couple more picture from the Emmet article

18th tee



road hole green

[JNC Lyon]

The "Road Hole" is the current 12th, as I'm sure everyone figured out.  This hole remains virtually unchanged today, and I'm guessing Rayner oversaw its construction in 1919.  The 18th tee shown is also Rayner's work as we know from the Otsego Farmer article above.

My thoughts are: Rayner is responsible for the original construction or redesign of every hole that exists today, with the exception of number 2.  I'd like to know what the 1909 routing looked like, but I'm guessing that all of those original nine holes have been modified.

Aerials would confirm these changes, but right now I think we have a pretty good picture of how the course evolved in its early days.

[Jim_Kennedy]

So, did they label this hole "Road" because of it's proximity to one? 

[JNC Lyon]

So, did they label this hole "Road" because of it's proximity to one? 

It seems that way.  There is another photo that labels a completely different hole along the same hole as the "Road Hole."  I believe this refers to the proximity to the road and not to the use of Raynor Road Hole template.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here's a letter to The Otsego Farmer from John Ryerson, a friend of Steven Clark. It mentions Clark's committment to Cooperstown GC, along w/Emmet and Rayner's contributions.

You'll find it in the fifth column from the left, under " COMMUNICATED".

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%20Disk3/Cooperstown%20NY%20Otsego%20Farmer/Cooperstown%20NY%20Otsego%20Farmer%20&%20Republican%20Grayscale%201960-%201961.pdf/Cooperstown%20NY%20Otsego%20Farmer%20&%20Republican%20Grayscale%201960-%201961%20-%200373.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=3d15b883&DocId=8442979&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=2&hits=35a+35b+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

[JNC Lyon]

Jim,

This article is the one I quote in my first post.  I think it gives a good sense of the Emmet/Rayner/Clark team responsible for the development of Leatherstocking.

[Jim_Kennedy]

OOPS!    I knew it sounded familiar.