[Paul Richards]

I must say, the Big Guy in the brown shirt - one hot dude!

 

[Tim Bert]

Eric:

1. How wide (estimate) is the beginning of the 18th fairway?  Looks claustrophobically small to me.  I'm guessing that it is just the scale of the giant sand area or else masked by the slope of the fairway but would like some confirmation.

2. I can't wait to play Pacific Dunes with you in March.  If you miss Dismal River while I am dazzling you with my shotmaking skills, I might shove you into the ocean.

[Eric Smith]

Eric:

1. How wide (estimate) is the beginning of the 18th fairway?  Looks claustrophobically small to me.  I'm guessing that it is just the scale of the giant sand area or else masked by the slope of the fairway but would like some confirmation.

2. I can't wait to play Pacific Dunes with you in March.  If you miss Dismal River while I am dazzling you with my shotmaking skills, I might shove you into the ocean.

Well Tim, as you can see here, John Kavanaugh (who is a big dude) doesn't block out the fairway from the tee in my photo, so I estimate it to be around 50-60 yards wide.  

Pacific Dunes -- it's been a dream forever.  Can't wait either!

[Paul Richards]

>John Kavanaugh (who is a big dude) doesn't block out the fairway from the tee in my photo, so I estimate it to be around 50-60 yards wide. Cheesy 


Wow, based upon the size of John's head, I was going to say the fairway was at LEAST 100 yards wide!

LOL.

 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

DR is on a great piece of land aka the hole sand hills area. I have always put it in wrong architectural firm for the site. It could have been first or 33rd in the area. I wonder if the current group post Sebonack might not have done this job a little different.

[JC Jones]

Tiger,

What don't you like about the course, specifically?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Eric,

Thanks for posting the pictures. I haven't been on this DG very long, but have been an onlooker for a few years, so it's a bit of a mystery to me why this course hasn't a higher profile. I had never even heard of it. Why? Are people here too dismissive of certain architects?

It looks stunning, and the par 3s appear wonderful, judging by your pictures.

Is this Nicklaus' best work to date?

[Eric Smith]

Eric, there is no reason to be defensive. If everyone's opinion was the same, this would be a boring place. I am glad that someone around here is standing up for this place.

I, for one, would love it if you went in a little deeper. What exactly did you love? Was it the strategy off the tee? The greens? The general surroundings?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Hey Rich,

Let me try to give you some more.

I loved that the golf course isn't afraid to present the golfer with so many blind and semi-blind golf shots.  The thrill of playing blind shots is one I haven't had a lot of experience with, but nevertheless have had a fondness for for some time.

More than one punchbowl green.  Hell I think there are four of them.  The golf course is tough enough. The respite of getting your ball over a ridge and finding the punchbowl feels like quite an accomplishment.  Then you have these great greens to putt on.  I consider myself a good putter and when I am putting well I can see the ball going in the hole before I putt.  Here you can see the ball going in. They are smooth and quick and wonderful fun.

Quirk.  DR has it. Nicklaus wasn't afraid to build it.  I applaud him for going with the unexpected.  

Some examples:  

Blindness -- already mentioned
A windmill in direct line of play
Green design at 4 - different
Hole 5 - different. Blind green with the beautiful bunker plopped into the middle of the saddle
Hole 8- 265 yard par 4
Hole 10 - wild green with a bunker in the middle of it
Hole 14 - the sloping fairway in front of the green that tumbles down to the massive bunker cut out from the hillside
Hole 18 - Awe inspiring elevated tee, then straight uphill, enormous waste bunker, big intimidating fairway bunker, totally blind green, tame jack rabbits

I mentioned before, 'the discovery'.  This is probably the heart of the matter.  The place is so raw, so unknown, still, it felt like we were discovering something new -- something great.

Why raters bash it I don't know and could really care less.  I do feel, Rich, that a guy like you, a guy who goes on golf trips to 'discover' great golf, would enjoy a trip out to Dismal River. And if you go, I'd love to tag along.

[Steve Kline]

I think the pictures of this course look really, really good. You would never guess it is a Nicklaus course based on them. I have a questions/comments based on the pictures.

1. Does the course play truly firm and first (because it looks quite green and lush)?
2. In comparing this course to Ballyneal, the fairways at DR seem to be much tamer. Is that the nature of the dunes at DR or could the Nicklaus team not resist bringing in the equipment to smooth things out a little?
3. The par 3s seem to all fall within a narrow band for distance (145-175 yards). Do they play substantially different lengths due to topography or wind. While I applaud the short, uphill, blind par 3 it seems DR needs a longer par 3 in the mix too.
4. I would look to see more fairway cut, especially around the greens. Sometimes that first cut of rough seemed jarring in the pictures. Does that first cut limit the ground game options around the green?

[Scott Warren]

Steve,

Your point number 4 hits the point that jumped out at me. It seems if you miss a green laterally, there is very little opportunity for a bump-and-run or putt.

[Paul Jones]

Eric,
How recent was this trip?  Was this after the most recent changes?  If so, was it the changes that made it so much better?

I have not been to Dismal River, but it does look very nice from the pictures.  I would think this course would be in higher regard if it would not be for Sand Hills next door.

Paul

[Keith OHalloran]

Tiger, what do you think that the crew would have done differently if they had done DR after Sebonack?

[Chip Gaskins]

I thought Dismal River was finished, either right after, or about the same time as Sebonack?  Also I think they finished Creighton Farms near Washington DC about that same time with some of the same folks at Nicklaus Design working a little on all three?

[jonathan_becker]

Easy,

Thanks for the spread!  Dismal looks great and some of the green contours look like a lot of fun.  I think it's cool that there are 2 courses in the same neighborhood that have a similar makeup, but are different from one another.

[Mark McKeever]

The pictures turned out great.  Thank you very much for sharing!

Mark

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

thank you for posting.
I have been very harsh on Dismal after my trip there, but hardly reconise some of the holes from your pictures.
The middle of the front nine...the tough par three and short apr four.....where dreadful..but have grassed in very nicley.
I still think there are too many blindshots early in the round..but I look forwrad to returning now I have seen your thread.
I would not have ever gone back if you had not posted.
Dont you think the cabins and clubhouse area are superb?
I loved that part of the place...top notch accomodation and food to match.

[Jerry Kluger]

I agree with Michael that your photos make me want to go back and give it another try.  DR had some problems that began with JN saying he had never seen Sand Hills and was not interested in doing so - that was a ridiculous statement considering he had the opportunity to go a couple of miles down the road and see what is considered by many to be the finest course built in the last 25 years.  Another problem was opening the course too soon when the maintenance was not yet dialed in.  Some of the initial criticism of the design were apparently valid as there has been some significant redesign.  I hope they have smoothed over their relations with SH. 

[John Kirk]

Beautiful pictures, Eric.  The changing sky in the Sand Hills is to die for.  Golf course looks nice too.

[Eric Smith]

I think the pictures of this course look really, really good. You would never guess it is a Nicklaus course based on them. I have a questions/comments based on the pictures.

1. Does the course play truly firm and first (because it looks quite green and lush)?  
2. In comparing this course to Ballyneal, the fairways at DR seem to be much tamer. Is that the nature of the dunes at DR or could the Nicklaus team not resist bringing in the equipment to smooth things out a little?
3. The par 3s seem to all fall within a narrow band for distance (145-175 yards). Do they play substantially different lengths due to topography or wind. While I applaud the short, uphill, blind par 3 it seems DR needs a longer par 3 in the mix too.
4. I would look to see more fairway cut, especially around the greens. Sometimes that first cut of rough seemed jarring in the pictures. Does that first cut limit the ground game options around the green?

Steve,

Let me try to answer your questions.

1.  Firm and fast yes. As firm and fast as Ballyneal was. No. That course was brick hard...wonderful fun.  DR wasn't soft though, either.  The grass, though fescue as well, was a different 'blend' I would guess.  Balls would run out plenty on the fairways.  Definitely greener there at DR.  My pics of SH show a green golf course as well, and it was certainly firm and fast too.  But there's no question in my mind that BN was the firmest of the three courses.  SH greens -- fastest ever played. period!

2. I don't know the definitive answer to this question.  There are some fairways that lie at the foot of some really big sand hills and are more of a prairie field type of landscape.  But there are a lot more holes with rolls and bulges and speed slots and crevasses.

3. My yardages posted were from the square tees, about 6650 yards or so.  There are many teeing areas and most, if not all of the par 3's can stretch to near 200 yards.

4. I would like to see the same, and mentioned it while we played the course.  They have begun mowing down more of the rough on the outside of the primary cut, and I hope that they will eventually begin to mow out more of the fairway cut around the greens, like they have behind 5.  It would be great to see the hillside to the right of 8 green, completely cut down to fairway height to allow all shots off of the dune ridge to bound down onto the putting surface, allowing the golfer to be able to realize more eagle and birdie opportunities on this neat little par 4.

Yes, I think you do have to play more chip shots around the greens here than at the other courses played.

Eric

[Terry Lavin]

It's pretty difficult to determine the greatness of this golf course (or any golf course) from the photographs supplied, but they are very evocative of the Sand Hills experience.  The drive from North Platte to Mullen is an amazing experience.  When you get within 20 miles of Mullen, as far as the eye can see on either side of the two-lane road, one sees golf course after golf course...except there are no golf courses.  It's all natural blow-out bunkers and high grass.  An absolutely eye-popping experience, much like one gets when approaching Prairie Dunes, but the scale of it is out of this world.  I'll add DR to the itinerary next time, on the basis of these photographs, even though I don't harbor any hope that it's nearly as great as Sand Hills, which is still my all time favorite golf experience, even better than Cypress Point.

[Tom_Doak]

Some examples:  

Blindness -- already mentioned
A windmill in direct line of play
Green design at 4 - different
Hole 5 - different. Blind green with the beautiful bunker plopped into the middle of the saddle
Hole 8- 265 yard par 4
Hole 10 - wild green with a bunker in the middle of it
Hole 14 - the sloping fairway in front of the green that tumbles down to the massive bunker cut out from the hillside
Hole 18 - Awe inspiring elevated tee, then straight uphill, enormous waste bunker, big intimidating fairway bunker, totally blind green, tame jack rabbits

Eric:

I'm not a rater [well, sort of] and I am not here to bash Dismal River.  I just find it funny that your list of the things you liked best about the course is almost identical to my list of the things I liked LEAST about it ... except that I would put a question mark after each item on your list!

So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Eric Smith]

Some examples:  

Blindness -- already mentioned
A windmill in direct line of play
Green design at 4 - different
Hole 5 - different. Blind green with the beautiful bunker plopped into the middle of the saddle
Hole 8- 265 yard par 4
Hole 10 - wild green with a bunker in the middle of it
Hole 14 - the sloping fairway in front of the green that tumbles down to the massive bunker cut out from the hillside
Hole 18 - Awe inspiring elevated tee, then straight uphill, enormous waste bunker, big intimidating fairway bunker, totally blind green, tame jack rabbits

Eric:

I'm not a rater [well, sort of] and I am not here to bash Dismal River.  I just find it funny that your list of the things you liked best about the course is almost identical to my list of the things I liked LEAST about it ... except that I would put a question mark after each item on your list!

So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Tom:

Why don't you like tame jack rabbits?

Just a thought: If this list is identical to what you don't like about Dismal River, then maybe the design is Jack's expressing himself as the anti-Doak since it was just after your collaboration?  [I know you've always said on here that you take no credit for the design at DR].

[Tom_Doak]

Eric:

Others have told me that those greens were Jack's [or Chris Cochran's] take on trying to do some of the same things in our work at Sebonack that he thought people liked ... perhaps instead of the kind of stuff he himself likes.

But all of that is speculation, just like yours.  You'd have to ask Jack himself what he was trying to do and why.

[PThomas]

i hope i can get back there next year..

i played it the first year it was opened, so it would be interesting to see the changes

i thought that 10 green would be changed, but i guess not....iimho it just seemed to have everything but the kitchen sink in it.....

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

paul,
I agree I personally thought that the green on number 10 was one of the factors in my initial reaction that the course truly lived up to he first of its two names!
I had a major objection to not knowing
1. That a bunker excisted in that position...and 2.That there was the majority of the green blind some thirty yards beyond what the eye could see.
I dont think that will be one of the factors I will see any improvemnet upon

That been said I thought some of the holes were wonderful..the finishing three I loved..but that short par four on the front at the time I was thre, was not even a short par four and that stupid landing area low and left was the onle way to play the hole, from where you were 100% blind...not only to the green, but from what I could see to the entire world 

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