[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I think Sean is sticking with UK only and courses he has played.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

I just IMed you or whatever it's called but since you aren't on here that much and may misss it please give me a call at 610-353-0568. Thanks

[John Mayhugh]

Glad you're doing this Sean.

Like Scott, St. Georges Hill is demanding a visit from me.

[Scott Warren]

Paul,

Would you include 11 at Canterbury in that list of Colt's great 11ths?

Yes I like that hole, definitely one of his best 11ths.  I wonder what the best par 3 on that course is? Must be between 2,11 and 17.  The 5th is solid but without the boldness of the others.  I don't remember much about the 8th..

The 8th is a flat 150yd-ish hole with quite an interesting green, but most remarkable for the fact you play over a bunch of topiary hedges! I'll see if I have a pic.

Just goes to show the brilliance of Colt that on a little course that gets no fanfare there are those three one-shotters - 2, 11 and 17 - that are just flat-out brilliant.

[JNC Lyon]

Pine Valley is in GB&I? And all this time I thought it was in the Dirty Jerz...

Sean, glad you took my recommendation on Swinley's 12th.  That is one of those holes that I only played once but wish I could've played about ten more times.

St. George's Hill does look awesome too, another course I missed during my trip.  When can I get back to England again???

[Mark Chaplin]

StGH is very nice but I'd take Hankley Common or Pulborough over it, unless you like Mayhughski style mansions. The Ruski's sure now how to build an in your face vodka palace on the estate.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Mark, I prefer Hankley Common for isolation alright... But St George's Hill is a better course I would have thought... certainly a grander course...

So Sean has to go for 14 next... What will he choose?... Calamity?... The 14th at SGH itself is a nifty par-3 but it doesn't beat Calamity and it has a sniff of drop-shot about it so it's long odds to be Sean's choice...

[Sean_A]

Tom

I think Sean is sticking with UK only and courses he has played.

Paul

I am happy to take the reco from a GB&I course I haven't seen if I think it is likely to be superior to my choice.  #s 3 and 11 are up for grabs at the moment, but I don't think a par 3 will do for the 3rd.  There isn't much difficulty finding par 3s for a Colt eclectic.  What do you think about Prestbury for #3?  The only problem I see is the fifth is a better hole for the fortress green types.  Your number 11, how steep is the tee shot?  It looks very harsh indeed. 

Scott

Do you have pix of your 11th?  What do folks think of the Hoylake choice?  I would like to get five par 3s on the course since par 3s are what Colt is ever so famous for building. 


#14 (Calamity Corner) ROYAL PORTRUSH DUNLUCE Par 3 - 202 Yards: A lot can be written about Calamity, but Darwin's quip after seeing Colt's work on the Dunluce, "a monument more enduring than brass", sums up the 14th just fine. 




I now run into a problem with the 15th.  I want to choose Northamtonshire's 15th because of its use of water, a relative rarity for Colt.  However, I am having trouble believing Colt would route back to back par 3s.  Can anyone come up with an instance of back to back short holes or Colt writing about it? 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

This is the only other pic I have of the 11th at Canterbury (other than the one above)

[Scott Warren]

Paul T:

Two pics of the 8th at Canterbury to refresh your memory.

[Gareth Williams]

Sean,

I have/can easily get pictures of the 6th of the New Course at Sunningdale if you want? Feel free to PM your email address and I'll get some to you for this thread.

Gareth

[John Mayhugh]

StGH is very nice but I'd take Hankley Common or Pulborough over it, unless you like Mayhughski style mansions. The Ruski's sure now how to build an in your face vodka palace on the estate.

Pulborough was fantastic and definitely rates another visit.  I'll add Hankley Common to the ever-growing list.  Just repeating all the courses I saw last Sept would be a great trip, yet there are so many others.  I still need to see St. Georges Hill just to see those Mayhughski style mansions.

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

I have a good choice for the 3rd:  Thorndon Park,  not sure if I have a good pic though.  It has a diagonal carry over a lake and nice approah.

For 11th I suspect that Wentworth East is probably his best in GB+I, everyone raves about it...but I don't really know it so someone else will perhaps chime in.  

The Belfast 11th hole is a climb of about 20feet I'd guess...it's a very different kind of hole with its angled green and sharp drop...takes no prisoners.

For the 15th, I'd vote for Lytham, but I know you aren't a fan. I think we need at least one hole which is heavily bunkered.

Scott

Thanks for the pic of Canterbury's 8th.  Yes a nice angled green...looks like it could fit in with another Colt course:  Whittington Heath.
Back to back par 3s for Colt:  I can only think of one course:  Brancepeth's 9th and 10th.

[Sean_A]

That settles it for me then.

#15 SOUTHFIELD GC Par 3  - 187 yards: While inspecting the boards one will notice three clubs claim this course as its home turf.  The oldest, Oxford University GC, was formed in 1875.  The course is terribly convenient for student golfers as the spires of the university are not much more than a few miles distant.  From the 4th tee Magdalene College and Radcliffe Camera can just be seen across a long valley. Unfortunately, modern expansion has somewhat obscured the view, but it can hardly be surprising since the course is on the Cowley side of what can generally be considered the middle of the city.  Oxford City GC (1899) and Oxford Ladies GC (1901) make up the final two of the trio of centenary clubs.  After some discussion with a few members I gleaned that Southfield  is not a golf club in the traditional sense.  It is rather more of a holding company which maintains the house and course.  The three clubs appoint directors to the company to ensure all is well and their views are properly (and I suspect roughly equally) represented.  

Golf was played in the area from as early as 1873.  The original course was primarily located in the marshes below the hill on which the course is now located.  At some point James Braid was involved in a redesign and then in the early 1920s HS Colt significantly re-worked the course.  It is thought some of Braid's work remains, if true, likely in the form of  few fairway corridors.  However, it is safe to say Southfield can be attributed to Colt and it is a course he surely would have been proud to call his own.
Despite being compromised by trees the fifteenth is a lovely par 3 with the green delicately benched into the hill to the right.  The curious shaping around the green is evident on many other holes at Southfield and on courses such as Harborne in Birmingham.  



Ciao

[Sean_A]

I have taken the momentous step of replacing Co Down'd 9th with Portrush Valley's 9th.  I just couldn't see not having a drivable par 4 on the course and this is one area Colt didn't excell in.  

#16 PRESTBURY Par 4 - 384 Yards: The 16th turns back on #15 and begins the final stretch.  This is the only bunkerless hole on the course and at a modest length it won't strike fear into the hearts of many.  The one defense this hole does have is positioning.  As one can see, anything down the left leaves a severe side-hill lie.  


If one manages to hit the fairway a magnificent opportunity to use the terrain emerges.  One can play short and right and let the slope turn the ball to the hole.  However, if the player misjudges the pace, a scar hollow to the right awaits.  This is without a doubt one of the cleverest of Colt holes I have come across.  



Ciao

[Sean_A]

#17 HONOURABLE COMPANY OF EDINBURGH GOLFERS Par 5 - 506 Yards: HCED is the oldest club in the world and can trace its roots back to 1744 when its members played over the Leith Links.  The club eventually settled on its present site when Old Tom Morris designed a 16 hole course which was shortly thereafter made an 18 holer.  The course was changed here and there until additional land was obtained and the club employed Colt to create a new course in 1923.  Famous for its clockwise running front nine and the anti clockwise back nine within the front nine routing, the new course opened in 1924.  It isn't surprising that many should consider Muirfield Colt's finest effort as Colt spent an inordinate amount of time on the design.  In fact, it is the second Colt plan which the committee accepted.  As was usually Colt's want, he wisely used what he could from the previous course, yet still created the majority of holes from scratch.  Ironically, perhaps Muirfield's best three-shotter is the ninth, a hole which Colt sensibly allowed to remain from the old course. In a very real sense, Colt may have been at his absolute best when he was asked to rework a course.  Colt always seemed able to keep remnants of the older design which he somehow used to create superb variety and a seemless transition between eras of design.

My selection of #17 is due to Colt's brilliant use of bunkering which harass each shot. Before each blow the golfer must decide how he will handle the bunkers.  For the golfer hoping to earn a straight forward five or possibly a six , the tee shot must skirt bunkers on the crest of a slight hill just where the fairway turns left.  This then leaves him in a position to carry the huge cross bunkers on the next, or even have a go at the green.  However, there are two more sentinels protecting the putting surface which angles slightly away and behind a dune from the player giving the driving zone bunkers too wide a berth.  The temptation the shots provide on this hole are sublime and a testament to Colt's understanding of the balance between challenging and fun shots.   

Need a Photo

Ciao   

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

17 at Muirfield is a great hole, no doubt.  However, it may be the third best par 5 on the course, since the 5th has a much superior green complex.  Given your comments about wanting a driveable par 4, did you consider the 2nd at Muirfield, which I think is a vastly under-rated hole?

[Sean_A]

Mark

Yes, I did consider Muirfield's 2nd.  It just wasn't up to snuff for me.  I must say that Colt didn't build many great short 4s, certainly a weakness in design mantra.  


#18 RYE Par 4 - 439 Yards: How could I not end a Colt Eclectic where it all began?  Alright, strictly speaking the 18th could be considered a Rolland-Colt effort - for the most part!  Anyway, Rye itself is a lovely town stranded high upon a hill some two miles distant from the links at Camber Sands.  The club is storied for being the host of the President's Putter.  While the Putter is not of much importance today, it has seen much greater times when the leading British amateurs squared off for the honour of hanging a ball on the Putter.  Incidentally, THE Putter has tripled in number. The original Putter was donated by John Low, the second Putter was the handiwork of Laurie Auchterlonie and the one which the balls since 1983 hang was crafted by Willie Park Sr.  

Rye has so much to recommend it that one must play it to gain any true sense of what it has to offer, but here goes anyway.  The course well and truly takes complete and full advantage of the land both in terms of routing and the undulations.  There is a main dune ridge which effects the entire front 9 and a few holes on the back.  Many greens are smallish targets and difficult to hit especially when the ground is keen.  However, several greens have superb ridges, humps and hollows short of them which dictate the best angle of attack when the trying to kick an approach in.  Several holes, many of which may be perceived as bland, particularly in the corner which contains #s 10,11 and 17 are in fact better than given credit for.  These flatter holes are a stark contrast to the sometimes uncontrolled rambunctious land. Rye has a palpable element of the old fashioned about it even though much of the course is more from the modern era than not. #s 6 and 13 are wonderful examples of this old world charm.  The par 3s, while undeniably strong, are not what gives me the overwhelming sense of what Rye is about.  I think its par 4s as a group are outstanding in their variety and the execution required to play them successfully.  Much like Pennard, Rye is a bumpy course which affords only the rare flat stance and this is a key attribute in defending par.

At one time the hole played over a "great gash of sand".  Alas, the Soup Bowl, much to Darwin's lament, is no longer a main feature of the 18th, but it is still a grand hole traversing typically humpty bumpty Rye terrain.  One should take aim at the house clock and strike a true and straight blow or risk tumbling down into the the remains of the gaping bunker far up and to the right of the fairway.  


The fairway flattens a smidgen for the approach, but the green sports a false front.  Its a fine finish to Rye and any Colt Eclectic.



The back nine par is 34 over 3181 yards.  
The front nine is par 35 covering 3064 yards.
TOTAL Par 69 - 6245 Yards

Ciao

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

If hole number eleven is under review...there cannot be a better number 11 associated with Colt than that at Woodhall Spa.
437 yrads of brilliance and difficulty..this could be one of my favourite 10 holes anywhere in the world

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

You often say 10, 11 and 17 at Rye are better than they are given credit for, but unless I am mistaken, I've not seen you elaborate on that.

Can you flesh that out a bit? What makes any of those three holes worthy of being on the same course as the likes of 4-7 and 13-16?

More than any other course, I think the hardcore fans of Rye gloss over the significant shortcomings of its weak holes - namely 1, 10, 11 and 17.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

You often say 10, 11 and 17 at Rye are better than they are given credit for, but unless I am mistaken, I've not seen you elaborate on that.

Can you flesh that out a bit? What makes any of those three holes worthy of being on the same course as the likes of 4-7 and 13-16?

More than any other course, I think the hardcore fans of Rye gloss over the significant shortcomings of its weak holes - namely 1, 10, 11 and 17.

Scott

First, #17 is a very good hole and a marked change in character from the other par 3s.  Other than it being flat (not a good reason imo) and me particularly enjoying the contrast of terrain, I don't see why anybody would call #17 a poor hole. Probably the best way to create superb diversity is to contrast areas of flat, humpty bumpty, rolling and/or hilly terrain.  #17 is one such hole in the fabric of this sort of diversity.  It gets my thumbs up especially considering the other par 3s.    

Second, #1 is a fine starting hole.  There are countless of the same quality on many superb courses.  I like a low key intro to a course.

#10 is comfortably my least favourite hole on the course, but again, it is very different in character from the remainder of the holes due to smacking between gorse and what not for the approach.  The big issue is the best line of attack IS THE 17TH GREEN!  I spose the road hems in the hole so not much can be done.  

I have said it before, if #11 were a carry over a huge sandy waste it would be hailed as a masterpiece.  From the white this is a good hole that would be great if the view weren't a shocker.  Sorry folks, sometimes views do matter!  From the yellow tee the drive is silly and the heroic aspect is lost.  Solution:play the white tee.  

Scott - why do you think #s 1 and 17 are poor (weak) holes?

Ciao  

[Paul Nash]

StGH is very nice but I'd take Hankley Common or Pulborough over it, unless you like Mayhughski style mansions. The Ruski's sure now how to build an in your face vodka palace on the estate.

I agree with Mark - Hankley is the most underrated course discussed on this forum - best site ever for a heathland course, possibly any golf course, but I think some people use this fact to try and argue that the design is not as good - stunning par 3s, great par 4s and wonderful par 5s. There is a lot of subtlety in the design that takes a while to uncover - usually a fair degree of width but there is always a better position to attack from. If I had to pick one course to play for the rest of my life, this would get the nod. Of the really top-class holes, I would quote 1, 3 (I want to try the new back tee!), 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 18. Re the par 3s, I would take 7 and 11 over any on SGH and Swinley.

If anyone fancies a GCA trip to see Hankley over the next few months, I would be up for it.

[Scott Warren]

Scott

First, #17 is a very good hole and a marked change in character from the other par 3s.  Other than it being flat (not a good reason imo) and me particularly enjoying the contrast of terrain, I don't see why anybody would call #17 a poor hole. Probably the best way to create superb diversity is to contrast areas of flat, humpty bumpty, rolling and/or hilly terrain.  #17 is one such hole in the fabric of this sort of diversity.  It gets my thumbs up especially considering the other par 3s.  

I think the visibility is poor for a hole of that length. I like my 200 to 230-yard holes to have either solid visibility (13 at Addington, 11 at Walton Heath Old, 2 at Woking, 6 at West Sussex) or deliberate, significant blindness (17 at Golspie, 16 at Trevose etc).

I don't say 17 at Rye has major structural flaws, I just think on a course people are suggesting is one of the top eschelon in the world, every hole has to earn its keep and 17 doesn't match the highs of the course at its best, especially the other par threes.

It is subtle, sure, but there is a fine line between subtle and bland.

Second, #1 is a fine starting hole.  There are countless of the same quality on many superb courses.  I like a low key intro to a course.

What I see there is that you don't really think it's much of a hole, but seeing it's the opener, you're willing to cut it plenty of slack. I know plenty of people have the same feeling, I just don't see why hole #1 should be able to get away with being dull any more than #18 can.

What features do you like about #1 as a golf hole? What interests or challenges you as you stand over any of the 2/3 shots it takes to get to the green?

I'll give you the hidden extra fairway down the right and some nice undulation further down the driving zone that will help a long first strike get some extra yardage, but beyond that the hole is one that, where it the 5th, 8th, or 16th you would straight-up criticise as boring.

I suppose you and I just have different expectations of an opening hole. #1 at Rye meets your expectations but not mine, I suppose we just have to agree to disagree, but I would still be intersted in your thoughts on what - removed from its place in the round or the fact that there might be similar opening holes on other good courses - makes #1 a good golf hole.

#10 is comfortably my least favourite hole on the course, but again, it is very different in character from the remainder of the holes due to smacking between gorse and what not for the approach.  The big issue is the best line of attack IS THE 17TH GREEN!  I spose the road hems in the hole so not much can be done.

I love some different terrain and character in the round also, but as you concede above, that doesn't change the fact a dull hole is a dull hole. I mean, Sir Alex Ferguson could select me to play right midfield for Man United this season on the grounds that by having never played football before and being Australian, I am a different type of player to the rest of his squad, and the team might still win matches, but that wouldn't make me a good footballer.

I have said it before, if #11 were a carry over a huge sandy waste it would be hailed as a masterpiece.  From the white this is a good hole that would be great if the view weren't a shocker.  Sorry folks, sometimes views do matter!  From the yellow tee the drive is silly and the heroic aspect is lost.  Solution:play the white tee.  

I have played it from both tees and still think the silly drive affects the hole so significantly that what is a pretty cool approach shot over that slight scallop to the sloping green is all for nought.

My issue is not that the RHS hazard is water.

My issue is that you have a blind approach to a narrow fairway, set at an angle so you're hitting somewhat across it that is bordered by an unrecoverable hazard on both sides (water and gorse). What makes it entirely unreasonable is that for most of the year the course is so firm and fast that stopping the ball in the fairway is nigh on impossible. With a wind behind or out of the right, you're no chance.

I know savvy golfers who have played that hole 5+ times and still have no idea how that tee shot can sensibly be played apart from hitting a mid iron and hoping.

[Niall C]

Well done Sean. Nothing from Rosses Point ? Not a criticism but interested in your thoughts. Its got 2 of the more unusual par 3's, the short one with no bunkers in the first few holes and the long par 3 with the burn hard behind the green somewhere in the back nine (12th ?), both great holes.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Scott

You say you played the back tee on #11, but your comments are front tee related.  I agree, the from the front tee, the hole is poor.  I disagree that we are talking about the same hole from the back tee.  Everything is in view and it is a short par 4 to boot.  There should be no complaints about hazards. 

I don't see why you dislike the 1st.  The green is fine.  The drive is fine.  It covers some interesting terrain.  IMO, you are too picky.  The hole works well without being in any way a stunner. 

I see more than enough to play the 17th.  Perhaps it is time to get some glasses or at least have a check up.  You aren't getting any younger.  Come on, be straight forward and lets hear your proper beef about the hole.  To me, 17 is a good par 3 and at the right time in the round because shots won't be given. Sorry, you are not gonna convince me the hole is less than good because you can't see what is gong on.  I see it fine.  Steer the shot between bunkers left and a wierd little track deal right.  I like the very short bunkers on the left because they are well placed to catch the greedy guy looking for perhaps something more than he is needs to achieve.  In fact, the bunkering down left of this hole may be the best placement of bunkers on the course.  The issue of not having "full view" is a by-product of flat terrain - I like this sort of design very much, especially when tied in with more rambunctious land.   

Nial

I like Sligo an awful lot, but the vagaries of hole numbers made the likes of #17 and the all world 7th not fit in.  What can I say?  I left out Co Down's 9th looking for a drivable par 4.  To be honest, this is what I learned during this little foray in fantasy; Colt has a major weakness in designs because I don't think he really explored drivable par 4s very well.  It is an issue I never considered before.       

Ciao


 

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